Feb 14, 2008 at 9:07 pm #1227311
This was supposed to be a 'secret' project, but I dont think I will be able to work on it anytime soon. So I have decided to share this idea with you all. That will give this idea time to improve and evolve and when I finally make my own jacket it will come out much better.
The idea is to use the most breathable waterproof technology – dricucks as a lining under a durable, uncoated synthetic fabric. Roger C and several others recommended Taslan Nylon/Supplex.
Basically, the face fabric should be durable/uncoated and absorb little water when wet. But I read in another thread that supplex wears out very fast when expose to direct sunlight. Rainshed has 3ply supplex with 30+ sun protection. I think that will solve the problem.
well, its a pretty simple idea. Just seamseal it and voila.Feb 14, 2008 at 9:52 pm #1420667
Huzefa, Hi, interesting idea. Do you know the breathability numbers for event and dryducks? Maybe in g/m2/24h?Feb 14, 2008 at 10:08 pm #1420669
@nilesLocale: On the Dirt in Oregon
Will there end up being trapped moisture between the layers from rain and such?Feb 14, 2008 at 10:25 pm #1420671
So, basically you are talking about wearing a DriDucks jacket with a windshirt over top of it?Feb 15, 2008 at 12:27 am #1420674
I tend to wear a Montane pertex windshirt and then when the rain becomes stronger put a Montane 200 jacket over the top.
Moisture does build up between the two layers and of course after prolonged rain moisture will push back through the pertex. However, overall it does feel less clammy.
The two together weigh around the same as PacLite but I always carry a windshirt and so the weight-cost is minimal.
For light or not-prolonged rain I just prefer to get wet…Feb 15, 2008 at 2:10 am #1420677
Brett, I dont have breathbility numbers but I suspect that BPL article 'Waterproof Breathable Fabric Technologies: A Comprehensive Primer and State of the Market Technology Review' may have it.
Peter, I dont know whether you can use Supplex as windshirt. Windshirts are not durable enough for rock climbing, mountaineering etc. where superior abrasion resitance is required.
This technique will allow use of propore even when durability is a concern. Possibilities are endless.Feb 15, 2008 at 6:00 am #1420686
@bugbombLocale: South Texas
I don't have anything but experience to back this up, but you may find that both breathability and waterproofness are compromised with this strategy. The taslan layer will become saturated and will hold moisture against the propore membrane.Feb 15, 2008 at 8:59 am #1420703
let us know how it turns out, I would second the above comments but a good DWR should help for a little bit.
Personally, I'd be worried about the Frogs Togs wearing out from use at seams or from the weight and rubbing between your shoulders and pack straps and then the whole garment being to expensive to replace because of the added features/shell – which I'm not convinced there would be enough increased durability, from wear from just moving in the suit, to offset the added costs.
I also wonder if with the total weight-durability-and replacement cost, inexpensive PacLite or eVent may not end up being overall the better choice.
Still, let us know how it goes, I'd love to find out. And it would be cool if it worked out well.
have fun!Feb 15, 2008 at 10:34 pm #1420808
That was what I was afraid of. My idea is to use a fabric that doesnt absorb water. After some more reading I did find conclusively evidence that Supplex/Taslan does absorb water -so it will not work.
I think using polyester may solve the problem. I have polyester Epic in mind. Encapsulated polymer will absorb very little (if any) water and dry out very fast.
But using a combination of EPIC/propore we can have a completely windproof, waterproof, durable jacket which is very breathble. Also some people here dont carry windshirt while using eVent. Many others would like to do the same but eVent is expensive. This will give you cheap option which is as good as eVent and you dont have to worry too much. You can get Driduck suit for $15 and 2 yard of Epic for $26. So you can make your jacket/pant for under $45!
I am not talking about just wearing driduck under Epic. I have read many negative comments on DriDucks fitting. Cut the Epic as per your pattern. Get XXL DriDucks – cut it as same as the Epic pattern. Stich it together and seam seal it. Ofcourse, it will require some work and good sewing skills. Why XXL? well, it will give you more fabric to work with, and I think I could get enough material to also make a pair of Propore socks!
Robert, I m not too much worried about it rubbing under pack straps. My pack weight is rarely above 5 pounds.
I dont know if this combo is really more breathble then Event but I think this is the most breathable /waterproof jacket you can make yourself.Feb 16, 2008 at 3:48 am #1420818
You epic/propore combo jacket will NOT be as breathable as event fabric in my opinion.Mar 1, 2008 at 4:53 pm #1422660
@blister-freeLocale: Puertecito ruins
If this idea is mostly premised on improving the durability of a stock DriDucks jackets, then how important is durability when the jackets can be replaced for very little expense?
Separate waterproof and windproof layers would serve their respective tasks better than a single layer intended to replace both. In addition to the usual body temp regulating advantage of multiple thin layers, a separate breathable wind jacket could be worn over the DriDucks whenever the going gets extra gnarly.Mar 2, 2008 at 8:52 am #1422728
I've been thinking about that today and thinking about the weight of silnylon compared with waterproof-breathable laminates.
What I was thinking today was to take the recently BPL published windshirt pattern and make it in SilNylon.
Obviously SilNylon is non-breathable but what I thought is that it would be possible to fit gills down the side of the jacket – overlapping air vents that are waterproof but would encourage the chimney effect.
I was also wondering about a rear gill over the shoulder-blade and a front gill over the chest.
The jacket could be topped off with a high collar and paired with a pertex hood/balaclava.
This jacket would generally worn over a windshirt.
The idea is to have a 100% waterproof outer and let the mid layers handle the micro-climate.
I think a SilNylon top would use around 2-2.5m^2 of fabric which would give it a weight of around 100-150g using 60gsm SilNylon for me (Large).Mar 2, 2008 at 1:00 pm #1422757
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
> What I was thinking today was to take the recently BPL published windshirt pattern and make it in SilNylon.
Reckon you might sweat something awful inside it if working hard. That stuff is NOT breathable.
Have a look at my article
and especially at the discussion about the poncho I use. That seems to me to be a better way of using silnylon. It worked well for us.
CheersMar 3, 2008 at 9:16 am #1422844
Where is this recently posted windshirt pattern? I dont see it in articles or forums, but maybe I am not searching right.Mar 3, 2008 at 11:02 am #1422858
Member's Only Article… I think…Mar 3, 2008 at 11:30 am #1422864
I did look at ponchos – in fact I have a PVC one in the house. I did also look at your Notra-dame poncho as an idea.
But I don't just plan to make the coat to the pattern. I plan to extend it to be knee-length and so replace another piece of rainwear.
I know that it will be hot sometimes – but I only tend to wear a coat when it is cold and raining. For a lot of rain I find it more comfortable to become slowly wet with a Montane Windshirt keeping the worst off.
My typical summer rainwear is the Montane Windshirt paired with something like the ULA rainwrap, so I'm thinking of scenarios when that starts to fail – prolonged rain.
In practice I will wear a coat (Montane 200) quite rarely and find it to be a bit clammy in cold rain and so a little heat might not go amiss.
I'm also playing with the idea of having a pertex back-panel instead of SilNylon on the grounds that if I'm wearing a pack I won't need 100% raincover on that area.
I'm much more interested in being comfortable and being able to maintain core body temperature than I am worried aobut being absolutely dry.
I tend to be comfortable in quite cool temperatures – 50F is still T-shirt temperatures for me when walking.
The bottom line is that I've got SilNylon and Pertex in the house (I buy in bulk) and so I can afford to play around – even to the point of producing two unusable garments. It will take me about 1/2 a day to do one coat…Mar 18, 2008 at 6:07 am #1424740
The intention behind this design is use in cold (25-35-daytime) climate while climbing or mountaineering. However while hiking I agree with Brett that Driduck alone will work great.
Over the last few weeks I have been thinking of ways of improving this design. From what I have read in other posts in this forum, I have learnt that vapour freezes in EPIC below freezing temp. This results in reduced breathabilty. This can be prevented by wearing ths jacket next to the base layer so that body heat will prevent this. Also choosing dark colour EPIC can help maximise the benefit of sunlight.
so has anyone tried this?Mar 21, 2008 at 1:18 am #1425064
Benjamin Smith wrote: "I don't have anything but experience to back this up, but you may find that both breathability and waterproofness are compromised with this strategy. The taslan layer will become saturated and will hold moisture against the propore membrane."
I am wondering whether this can be avoided by having some insulation such as 2.5oz XP in between supplex and propore. Wont the wet Supplex still be more breathable then epic or say eVENT?Mar 21, 2008 at 1:32 pm #1425118
Have you considered the goretex w/ a 330D Cordura outer fabric from seattle fabrics? Even though its goretex, it would still be more breathable than propore and any nylon on top of it, and super durable.
If you want an insulated jacket for mountaineering just search for belay parkas, whether wp/b or not. I don't know anything about them, but im sure there are plenty of resources out there. If your just backpacking, remember the basic principle of layering- if you have a WP/B insulated jacket, you may not need the insulation in it when its raining. Go with an appropriate insulated jacket for the low temps you will encounter and have a separate rain jacket for rain.Mar 21, 2008 at 1:52 pm #1425123
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Sorry – missed your post.
There is no way I would normally wear a silnylon windshirt – for me it would be just a bath, especially here in Oz. I know what you mean by knee-length – Australian parkas are all made that way.
Would it work in the UK? I have my doubts, from my experience, but you never know for sure until you try it.
> pertex back-panel instead of SilNylon on the grounds that if I'm wearing a pack I won't need 100% raincover on that area
But when it rains a lot of water does go down your back between you and your pack. That is the virtue of the poncho: my back is completely sheltered but there is lots of ventilation there still.
Try it and see?Mar 21, 2008 at 3:16 pm #1425132
time will tell.
I've made what can only be described as a knee length anorak which flares a reasonable amount to the knee. I know that this creates a fair amount of upflow.
I've created a simple vertical collar for it and not fitted a hood. I've also fitted three waterproof 4" horizontal vents (like gills) into the side of the jacket between the waistline and the underarm.
I plan to use a waterproof hat rather than a hood and have fitted a front 8" zip just like on a cagoule.
I know from field tests last year that the airflow under a waterproof skirt is so good that condensation is zero.
It's not yet been field tested.
I tend to carry a foam mat on my pack and so that makes fitting a poncho over it a little difficult unless a lot of fabric is used.
I've not fitted any pertex panels to it. I'm going to see what happens. I only tend to bother with proper waterproofs when ambient temperatures are low. I also tend to 'underdress' wehn walking outdoors. The combination of these two things means that I don't expect sweat to be a major issue.
With WPB fabrics I tend to find them cold and clammy and for me that is the worst of both worlds.
Anyway, field testing will tell me what happens. Until then I know that it's saved me over 200g from pack weight…Mar 25, 2008 at 12:20 pm #1425545
You could make a panel in the back from a rectangle of double ventile to avoid wet back, but would be a bit heavier, therefore, the ventile section would want to be as small as is usable. Pointnorth.co.uk sell cosmetic seconds ventile.Mar 26, 2008 at 12:43 pm #1425716
Thanks everyone who commented. I really appreciate the feedback.
Mike, I like your Anorak idea. It makes a lot of sense. When used with rain chaps, it can provide complete protection from rain. Yet there is ample ventilation. I am wondering which silnylon did you use? Will 70D 1.9oz (before coating) be durable enough for climbing and mountaineering?
Wow. silnylon has made my head spinning. Im thinking -how about a propore anorak with silnylon in abrasion critical areas? Propore: body and underarms, Silnylon: shoulders, arms, and sides. Add full sides zips from bicep to hem and it should be very breathable and keep worst of storm off when hiking. Chaps can be pulled on while mountaineering.Mar 27, 2008 at 5:36 am #1425785
I'm going to see how it works out. For now I've kept it simple and put 3 gill-like vents down each side.
It doesn't have a hood but does have a high collar.
If I need more vents or need to change design I'll do so after a decent period of testing.
I have also made a pair of short chaps/gaiters to go with the jacket.
The chaps attach using a toggle to a small loop on either side of the jacket and so create a completely waterproof and integrated weather gear.
In the end the jacket pattern was based on a commercial design with raglan sleeves and I extended it to add the integral knee-length skirt.
The jacket weighed in at 159g and the chaps at ISTR 67g. I've swapped my wamr-weather hat for a waterproof warm-weather hat to give me a hood.
It was all made in what I think is 1.7oz SilNylon (60gsm) because that is what I've got available to me.Mar 29, 2008 at 6:41 am #1426065
I have made a change in my design. I am thinking of keeping a propore layer over the entire body with silnylon on the sides, rear bottom, arms, shoulder. Silnylon will be stitched to propore at only at seams. On the body and underarms where there is only propore there will be zips on silnylon so that patches of silnylon can zipped over. This will allow use as VBL at night. Propore provides breathability the jacket but doesnt work as VBL. Silnylon will be glued to the propore at regular space to prevent flapping in wind.
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