Winter Packpacking Gear?

I saw on Sam's winter gear list he is using six silnylon stuff sacks as 'snow stakes'. I realize that he will fill them with snow and them burry them in the snow pack.

My question is how large would the silnylon stuff sacks have to be in order to support and properly tension a tarp or tepee style shelter? Would the snow stakes even work on a shelter like this?

John:

Since food is practically your only source of warmth, wouldn't it be wise to carry 3-5k extra calories? That's something like 30 ounces of fats or high-fat foods, but it could extend your food supply an extra day in the event of weather or another unforseen event.

During 3-season camping I think that a person can go a couple of days without food if necessary, but in the dead of winter the situation can be quite different. Your clothing and sleep systems are only as warm as they are when you put thousand of calories a day to the internal fire: if you stop feeding the fire when it is getting to 0F or colder at night you could find that your bag and jacket no longer cut it. Which could put you in the sub-optimal situation of having to strike camp in a blizzard and try for the car so as not to turn into a popsicle on night 4 of a 3-day trip.

Or am I being too conservative there? (I'm thinking of mountain environments where big storms can surprise everyone and sock you in for a couple of days.)

Chad: regarding snow anchors, I've recently purchased an Oware pyramid tarp for doing the same thing as you. (Just got the pole connectors in the mail; thanks David.) Since the tarp is already one order of magnitude more complex to pitch in a storm than a tent, I opted for SMC T Anchors to add a bit of simplicity.

I haven't tried them yet, but they add only 1 ounce each and were recommended by several people in this thread:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=10989&disable_pagination=1

There's also some good info and insight about pyramids (and tenting in general) in the winter here:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=5345&disable_pagination=1

Which pyramid are you using? Which bivy?

Chad,

I am expecting them to work in MN … they’ve been recommended in multiple winter camping how-to talks by folks who do it here.

HERE is an example. It doesn’t say the dimensions but others I’ve seen were about 7×7 or 8×8 (inches).

I made some with a finished size of 7×7. Used a heavier material (4oz, maybe) than silnylon and they ended up weighing about 0.5oz each.

Thanks for the info about the snow stakes. Too bad I don't have a sewing machine I would build my own out of silnylon.

Right now I am leaning towards using the Go Light Hex (either one person or two) for my primary shelter. I already own an Integral Designs Micro Bivy.

Chad –

I have a GoLite Shangri-La which you'll get to check out when we head up the shore in February. I'll be sewing up a set of snow stakes this weekend as well (just have to get more grosgrain from the fabric store tonight).

I was trying to figure out the proper dimensions for the stakes, thanks for the beta, Jim.

– Sam

I just looked at the SMC T-anchors, not bad but at 1oz each anchor not including the cordage I'll be carrying at least 6oz. of just stakes to set up my pyramid!

Brian…
That food amount was based upon 3 days. I always add between .5 and a full day extra, just in case. I've never been delayed for more than a very brief time in that section, and know it extremely well (including a couple of obscure, almost unknown, bale out points). I even added a few Chunky bars in addition to my supply of Snickers.

That's what initially drove me away from the Hex: the number of stakes really drives the weight up. (And the low area-to-weight ratio, and the complexity of pitch.)

Remember that your skis/snowshoes can also serve as stakes if the snow is deep enough and you're willing to posthole around in your boots while in camp. You could also theoretically borrow skis, snowshoes, or trekking poles from camping partners to use as stakes as well…

Well I don't usually backpack with other people so borrowing gear to anchor down my shelter is out of the questions.

Personally I don't think the Hex uses a great deal of stakes (six). The majority of freestanding tents will use that many to create a taught pitch in a storm. Typical flat tarp setups in winter require a minimum of 3-4 stakes but still have an exposed opening.

I have little winter experience, but using deadmen seems to be a good option. Stomp down the snow to make a pit, tie to a stick, put the stick in the pit, then pile snow on top and tamp it down again.

I got my idea about the stakes from Ryan Jordan. This is part of what he wrote in the gear reviews section for the Hex:

"2. Winter

For winter, I'm a little more critical. To weather a good stiff winter blizzard, and to maximize living area, you need to stake out 11 points. Combined with the need to get that geometry "just so", this is quite a lot of work to set up camp. Arrive early if the snow is deep: setting 11 stake out points in the deep fluffy powder snow, of say, the northern Rockies, is no easy chore. Sure, you can use trekking poles, ice axes, snowshoes, and all manner of 1 oz deadmen stuff sacks but the reality is the fastest and most convenient stakes are nice long tube stakes like those sold by Kifaru. And when a shelter requires 11 stakes (vs., say, 7 for a good MegaMid pitch), the weight of big stakes adds up.

We had an entertaining conversation about the Hex on my last trip. My partner said, "this shelter would be perfect it was square". But I'm not real concerned about lost space in the corners, I like them for gear storage, but the hex shape does make for a lot of stakeout points.

Also, in winter conditions, having a nonbreathable fabric for a floorless winter tent can be a real nightmare if you are trying to keep stuff dry. In very cold conditions, especially if it's still, the Hex, or any of these shelters, will not vent enough moisture through its peak vent to keep the insides of the walls dry. You have a very high humidity environment in here: snow floor, two+ people, cooking, etc. The condensation doesn't drip if its wet because of the steep walls but look out if you brush against it. Worse, however, at cold conditions, you can get some pretty gnarly frost rains when the wind blows, resulting in a fair bit of spindrift swirling around. A bivy sack or sleeping bag with a very water resistant shell is essential for a trip longer than a few nights in winter temperatures.

Having said all this, we use Epic fabric Hex 3's in BPL's winter courses here in Montana. Epic solves a big fraction of the condensation problems mentioned above, adds only a few ounces, and is far easier to pack up, with a lower packed volume, after the first night of big freeze.

To improve the Hex 3, I'd make it out of Epic, and include as an option, a winter stake kit that actually works, like the Kifaru snow stake kit, AND is ultralight, unlike the Kifaru kit…"

I guess what he's saying is that on a pyramid-style tarp, you have to stake out all the corners *plus* all the guylines, since the guylines are what keep the flat sides from billowing in the wind. (And thus raining frost on you I would assume.)

Anyway I don't know the truth, but this post is what convinced me to go with a 10×10 OWare Mid. Test reports as soon as I get my T Anchors in the mail.

Brian

Here’s a comparision between the Shargri-La 3 (aka Hex 3) and the Oware Mid.

Shangri-La 3
23 oz. weight (I use two trekking poles lashed together for the center pole)
11 stakes required (6 for the corners, 5 for the guy lines)
56 s.f of useable floor area.

Oware Mid 10’ x 10’
26 oz. weight
8 stakes required (4 for the corner tile outs, 3 for the perimeter tile outs)
100 s.f of floor area

That is a great graphical comparison!!! I may have it wrong, but I think your stake count is not quite right. Both tarps do not have the extra tie outs. They do have the mid-panel points to stake down the edges.

Hex3 has 11 stakes locations
6 corners
5 mid-panel points (optional)

Oware Pyramid has 8 stake locations
4 courners
4 mid-panel points (optional)

I'll be sewing up a set of snow stakes this weekend as well (just have to get more grosgrain from the fabric store tonight).

I didn't bother with grosgrain at all. Here is what I did:

1. Cut 9×9 inch squares. If I make another set I'd do 9×10. The rest of these instructions will assume 9×10.
2. Make two pleats parallel to the 9 inch side, centered, about 2 inches between the pleats, tack the pleats with stitching 1/8 inch from each 10 inch edges.
3. Sew a 1/4 inch rolled hem along each 10 inch side (which is now 8 inches due to the pleats)
4. Roll and sew a 5/8 inch drawstring channel along each 9 inch edge
5. Thread a 36 inch cord thru each drawstring channel, tie the ends with a figure 8 knot. I used 250lb braided dacron kite line.
6. Lay the ends of the two drawstrings together making a bundle of 4 strings and tie an overhand knot an inch or so from the end
7. Attach a keyring thru both "loops" made by the prev step.

I used mine last night for a 5×8 tarp I slept under. The snow was quite sugarlike, did not pack well and I did not have much time to wait for it to set up. "This'll never hold!" …. but it did (I didn't pitch particularly taught). It held all night and stood up to me tightening the pitch before I left in the morning. I'll tug on the tarp some tonight to see how they hold.

EDIT: the snow setup like concrete … that tarp is anchored! it's gonna take some serious digging to get them out

Great comparison of the two tents. I use the Hex3 in winter and have been happy with it. At first blush, the Oware Mid seems to be the winner due to the larger space for about the same weight. However, I will point out a couple of things to consider.

First of all, I hike in the Eastern forests and finding a flat, treeless spot big enough for the Hex is a major challenge, let alone the Oware. So, that environment may give the smaller but still palacial Hex an edge.

Also, in winter storms, I put out every stake possible. So, here again, the numerous stake points on the Hex may be considered an advantage.

That being said, I think both are fine tents and I really love the pyramid style for winter (snow country) camping.

Indeed, my pyramid has 4 corners and 4 mid-panel stake points. (Just counted.)

I think that the "stakes" argument can be made in either direction:

Hex — more stake points = less load per stake = lighter stakes can be used.

OWare — fewer stake points = fewer stakes (obviously) required, but they'd better be strong and well-placed since they're going to carry maybe up to 2 times the load.

I confess that an underlying consideration that drove me to the big 'mid was using it for a socializing area. Wind/snow/rain/bugs/bright sun can make people dive for their shelters, thereby killing what could otherwise have been a fun group evening. I love the idea of a big tarp for a big communal living area where people can cook and hang out, and I can still go to bed in it afterward. Thus on a solo hike, I might be more inclined towards the stronger silnylon, higher stake-point count, and smaller interior volume of the Hex 3.

But then again, if I was solo winter hiking I might prefer to err on the simple=safe side by ditching the bivy, groundsheet, complex pitch, and dependence on stakes for shelter integrity and just get one of the very light 4-season solo tents on the market.

Chad I look forward to reading your experiences with whatever setup you choose.

Thanks for the snow stake tips, Jim.

I make a half pyramid which was designed primarily for
forested areas, the Alphamid TM which can be set up close
to trees using overhead limbs and takes up less ground space.

One advantage to floorless shelters is the fact you can set them up over small trees and bushes.

So the Oware tarp dosen't have more than 4 tie out loops along it's base?

Hi Chad,

I have the Oware pyramid tent. I just got back from a wintter trip and used it for 3 days. My tarp does not have 11 tie out loops.

Vic

Thanks for all the info abou the Oware tarps. I'm serously looking at the Alphamid tarp! Up here in northern Minnesota I could set up with the flat side facing a tree for a wind break.

This doesn’t have anything to do with gear but. . .

Last weekend I was out for my first winter overnight and it was great! The overnight low is a bit of a debate right now. Weather.com says it was only 19 degrees but I think it was around 1-3 degrees. My reasoning is that the following morning 1/16" of water would freeze solid in a cook pot in under three minutes.

Anyways my question is about storing water overnight. I placed water in two nalgene bottles (forgive me, light weight water storage to come!) and placed them upside down in a snow bank. I then covered the water with 2-3 feet of medium density snow on all sides. The next morning the water along the perimeter of the bottles was frozen about an 1/8 inch thick and the openings of the bottles where almost frozen closed!

What did I do wrong?

Anyways my question is about storing water overnight. I placed water in two nalgene bottles (forgive me, light weight water storage to come!) and placed them upside down in a snow bank. I then covered the water with 2-3 feet of medium density snow on all sides. The next morning the water along the perimeter of the bottles was frozen about an 1/8 inch thick and the openings of the bottles where almost frozen closed!

That's a pretty widely suggested practice. One variation I've seen is to bring some extra blue foam and use it to make a cylindrical storage compartment inside the snow pile.

You can also make a blue foam cozie for a bottle or two. B4 going to bed fill them with heated water and take them to bed with you (inside sleeping bag)

You didn't do anything wrong. When the temp drops below a certain point, water is going to freeze no matter how much insulation you use.

When the temp is 0F and below I generally boiling around 1qt of water just before bed. It warms me up going to bed, provides drinking water at night, and enough will be left in liquid form in the morning to be a "starter" for melting snow. I typically start my day melting snow since it's a nice way to produce a bit of heat at what is often the coldest part of the day. I typically make little snow bricks the night before so it's easy to add the snow to the melting pot.

Thanks for all the info!

On a related topic what do you prefer to use for your winter water storage? I'm looking at ditching the bottles and getting a 48oz. Nalgene canteen (aka wide mouth platy).