Layering Options Help

Unless you're a human furnace or you plan to be inside your sleeping bag immediately upon making camp, you should have a better midlayer in your three season setup. I'd suggest a lightweight puffy, something like the Uniqlo UL Down Jacket or Patagonia Down Sweater. Far more insulation for about the same weight as the Cap 2 LS. Depending on the exact conditions and expected sun exposure, you could use the Cap 2 LS as your base layer and roll up the sleeves if necessary. I use a long-sleeve baselayer for all my Sierra hiking, even in the summer. In the winter, you could use the same setup but with a heavier puffy. An R1 as an extra active layer (or even as a replacement baselayer) couldn't hurt.

"Unless you're a human furnace or you plan to be inside your sleeping bag immediately upon making camp, you should have a better midlayer in your three season setup." Agree, and strongly. I AM a human furnace, and can get by with a <2oz fill jacket into the 20s, but won't go anywhere with expected temps ~50F or lower without that light puffy. Other than that, your clothing looks fine to me, but again, I run exceptionally warm. I just came back from the Sierras a couple of weeks ago, and saw temps from ~100F at midday at 4k' to ~30F and windy by bedtime at 11k'+. Along with a rain jacket, I had a loose fit UA T for daytime, Cap2 zipneck and bottoms for camp, and a Backcountry Hadron jacket w/beanie. Wouldn't change a thing if I had to go back tomorrow. When it gets colder, I'll add an OR Ferrosi for hiking in, and switch to grid fleece bottoms and a MB Alpine Light Down Parka for camp. Swapping the Cap2 top for a R1 hoody worked well last winter when we briefly got ~0F for lows with daytime highs in the teens, but that's a rare occasion around here. Except for rainpants when applicable and the usual boxer briefs/socks/pants, that's my entire clothing system to negative single digits, and it's about perfect for me, though "normal" people will want more insulation on the low end. If you need less than that, you are quite the exception.

Cap 2 is a base layer, as is Cap 3. I consider R1, Power Stretch, 200w fleece, or High Loft fleece as mid layers. R1 could be considered a cold weather base layer, particularly when using snug fitting forms like the R1 Flash. Cap 4 should be included as a cold weather base layer and there are all the wool offerings too. I could see including Cap 4 as a summer mid layer. A good 3-season layering system for North America should include a puffy. I have a Micro Puff vest, a 100g Primaloft jacket, and a Patagonia Down sweater in my gear locker. IMHO, I would take fleece and windshirt over the wimpy 60g insulated garments like the Nano Puff and similar. IMHO, a puffy is an outer layer unless you need to pile everything on (like your rain shell) due to unexpected conditions. It would need to be very cold to be active and need a puffy, but cold/windy rest stops and camp need the extra insulation. You have removed your pack which was insulating your back, you're probably a little sweaty and you have stopped walking with a load.

For non sunny/hot weather, the cap 2 is better than the cap 1. It dries faster and is more breathable. I would have a mid layer in addition to the puffy. The mid layer goes on and off during the day as needed. Personally I would go with 2 very light mid layers in addition to a puffy because I overheat and cool down easily. I've done a cap 4 hoody with a light fleece vest on top of that and a puffy over all of that in camp. Nothing wrong with layering a cap 2 over a cap 2 if you want a small amount of extra warmth. Maybe a vest over the double cap 2. You need to figure out how much active insulation you need at a given temperature and make sure your layers add up to that. Mid layer = fleece. Don't mess around for puffies as active layers. That's just stupid light. Bring a windshirt in addition to a rain jacket so you can block the wind in something that allows perspiration to readily evaporate.

I'm a woman and perhaps run a little cold, but here's a rough approximation of my system: warmer weather: * ls base layer (rab aeon in summer, merino the rest of the time) * grid fleece or microfleece pullover (or ibex hooded indie if I want a hood) * windshirt (montbell tachyon) * down vest (on a short overnighter, height of summer, when I’m confident of the forecast, I’ll leave this at home. i’ve definitely had summer trips where I’ve never worn it.) cooler weather: * ls base layer (rab aeon in summer, merino the rest of the time) * grid fleece, microfleece, or merino mid layer * windshirt * hooded, full-zip puffy (i.e. uniqlo down, or maybe a lightweight primaloft in wet/humid conditions) true winter: * ibex hooded indie as base layer * grid fleece or micro fleece mid layer * windshirt * winter-weight down puffy (mine is an older Rab Infinity — not the new beefed up “Infinity Endurance”) I’ve not included my rain shell in my layering system because I don’t treat it as insulation. I carry a pro-pore jacket most of the time and for me the material is just too fragile to double as an active wind layer, so it only comes out when it’s precipitating. Honestly, I think people using 2.5-layer shells (Marmot Precip, OR Helium, etc) would do well to take the same approach; wearing a rain shell as a windshirt under your pack straps is a great way to make it delaminate and render it totally useless as a waterproof layer.

Two thumbs up on your system, K. Those mid layers can extend the range of a sleep system too. I too am a fan of vests for summer insulation. I have R1, 200w fleece and Micro Puff vests in the gear locker. The 200w sees more use around town– perfect under a rain shell on cold wet days. Ponchos are light rain gear, keep your pack (and upper legs) dry and don't delaminate under pack straps :)

Appreciate all of the replies. First off I did try on the two Cap 2 garments without a problem as I didn't experience any catching which I thought there would be. However it looks like the general consensus is that I would need something heavier as a mid-layer such as an R1. I was under the impression that the R1 was similar to the Cap 3 in warmth, is that not true? That is the reason I thought the Cap 2 may be sufficient. Others suggested I should get a mid as well as a puffy, really? In regular 3 season weather I don’t see the temps getting below 50’s I would imagine a Cap2 plus say a R1 and a jacket would be fine in that circumstance, am I wrong? Obviously in the shoulder seasons or where expected lows below that I would include a lightweight puffy along with the mid like others suggested. I am a furnace as I am always on the warm side so it does seem like a Patagonia down sweater or lightweight puffy would be overkill – especially at a weight penalty of 13oz. I could see maybe trying the Backcountry Hadron since its more along the lines of 8-9oz but maybe something along the lines like the Marmot Reactor ½ zip would work better? I could use it for an active layer in the day but at camp could add the rain/wind jacket. Thoughts? Any more active mids around the 8-9oz range? My new proposed setup: 3-season Base: Cap2 SS or LS (Depending on sun exposure/weather) Mid: Marmot Reactor ½ Zip or something similar Shell: O2 Rainshield Weather/Shoulder: Add something like the Backcountry Hadron or even add other Cap 2 Winter Base: Cap2 LS Mid: Marmot Reactor1/2 zip or something similar Insulation: MB Alpine Light Down Parka Shell: 3 Layer Rain Thoughts, suggestions? Thanks!

R1 is a lot warmer than cap3. Cap3 is a "heavy" base layer, but still very thin stuff. R1 breathes well and is a perfect marriage with a wind shell. Excellent for sleep too. I pick my base layer for the general expected condtions. The mid layer stays aboutvthe same and the puffy layer is again aimed at expected conditions. Wind shirt and rain gear are always there. Hiking uphill will find me in base layer plus windshirt as needed. Rest stops and camp add the fleece and/or puffy to suit my needs. I might use a mid layer in cold wet condtions for level/downhill stuff. You can play with the spreadsheet all you want, but an Excel file won't keep you warm. This is where the "stupid light" concept kicks in. Climate, season and personal metabolism are all factors to consider. If puffies seem too much, lean to vests to save weight abd bulk. A puffy vest over a fleecy hoodie and shell over all will keep you warm. All this stuff can be worn in many combinations too. Richard Nisely has done real clothing lab tests and prepared a number of charts. If you go to http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/104587/index.html?skip_to_post=884223#884223 and scroll down to "Re: CLO charts, etc", I posted links to most of his charts shared on BPL.

"However it looks like the general consensus is that I would need something heavier as a mid-layer such as an R1. I was under the impression that the R1 was similar to the Cap 3 in warmth, is that not true?…I am a furnace as I am always on the warm side so it does seem like a Patagonia down sweater or lightweight puffy would be overkill – especially at a weight penalty of 13oz. I could see maybe trying the Backcountry Hadron since its more along the lines of 8-9oz but maybe something along the lines like the Marmot Reactor ½ zip would work better? I could use it for an active layer in the day but at camp could add the rain/wind jacket. Thoughts?" -R1 is much warmer than Cap3. Wonderfully comfortable when it's cold enough to wear it as an active layer, but if you run hot like me, and are using a windshirt or light softshell over it for wind resistance, that means daytime temps in the teens or lower. Cap2 is a phenomenal all-around performer, and that's all I use in cool weather unless it gets cold enough to switch to grid fleece. -My thought on midlayers is that they're mostly dead weight. The first response you got that I agreed with referring to the puffy as a "midlayer" was talking about using it under a shell, not as an active layer. Regardless, nothing you can hike in during the day will provide anywhere close to enough insulation for the corresponding nighttime temperatures. With a grid fleece baselayer, I don't need a midlayer for hiking in even single digits, so there's no point in me carrying another 10-14oz layer that's going to add less warmth than 1 or 2 extra ounces of down fill in a puffy would. In camp, I go straight from baselayer, or baselayer under light softshell, to the puffy when it gets cold. My baselayer and puffy fill weight are the only things that change. Everybody's different, and you're going to have to experiment with this stuff to see what works best for you. Until you do, it won't hurt to err on the side of caution and take an extra layer. Nobody who actually knows what they need for a given set of conditions arrived at that conclusion by reading about it online.

synthetic is about half the warmth for the same weight as down fleece is about one tenth when I'm hiking, down to about 20 F, all I need is base layer and WPB jacket below about 20 F, hiking, a fleece mid layer is good. anything warmer will make me sweat. I never do below 20 F so I never carry fleece – just too heavy for the weight. when not hiking, I wear a synthetic mid layer. Synthetic handles moisture better than down, so I take the hit on warmth for the weight. rarely, if it's really cold, I use a down mid layer

IMHO, you can use the heavier weight Power Dry fleece as a base or mid layer. The grid design and tufts of fleece breathes and wicks well against the skin and still adds breathable warmth worn over a cap1/2/3 base layer. Some garments, like the R1 Flash are made with a trim cut and obviously designed as a base layer. The R1 hoodie slides more to the mid layer side and there are some full zip cardigan/sweater/jacket versions that scream mid layer, as do the vest versions. Cap 4 is just enough lighter that I would always put it in the base layer box. I've been waiting for a deal on a cap4 top (or my next trip to MEC in Vancouver). Whether you think a mid layer is extra weight and bulk is more a reflection of the season and regional climate. It might seem extra in California, but I think it is a Godsend anywhere north of the Columbia River, particularly for shoulder seasons.

this would really help you get accurate insight and get everyone on the same page: what temps/conditions are you looking at for "3 season"? what temps/conditions are you looking at for "winter"? 3 seasons in Montana means something different than say the desert southwest; here the idea of "three season" clothing and gear doesn't really work well. better instead to think of three distinct seasons- "summer", shoulder (much of fall and much of spring) and winter- each takes a slightly different approach, but the overall idea is the same- you need a base layer to move moisture, you need a shell to protect from wind and precip, you need an insulating layer to keep you warm when you're not moving "summer" the need for a mid-layer is questionable, on the move a thin base layer (re: your Cap 2's) and a shell is almost always adequate; at camp or rest an insulating layer of some sort is going to be needed (based on what temps/conditions you expect- could be a puffy vest, could be a puffy jacket, could be a fleece) shoulder season a mid-layer is usually necessary (in addition to your thin base layer), your insulating layer will vary with conditions, but with the addition of a mid-layer now in the quiver you may very well get by with the same insulating layer as "summer" "winter" I like to go to a heavier base layer (Cap 4 grid thus far being the best), but the long sleeve Cap 4 isn't a bad choice in winter, mid-layer still needed, insulating layer now more robust depending on the temps/conditions a light fleece might be your insulating layer in "summer" and your mid-layer in shoulder and winter; an insulating layer with Polartec Alpha might be your insulating layer in summer and a mid-layer in winter, lots of different examples of clothing being used through all seasons your choice of Cap 2 was a good choice and I think you'll be happy with their performance as a base layer, now you just need to dial in what in addition to the base layer and shell you'll need

"With a grid fleece baselayer, I don't need a midlayer for hiking in even single digits," If you can wear a grid fleece base layer and be comfortable all day, I think that's weird. I can be sweating shirtless hiking up hill and be shivering going down hill at the same temp. My body is so bipolar with heat production that I'm considering using a second base layer (like a cap 2) as a mid layer over a thin base layer because my cap 4 is a little too warm as a second layer. Shows how different people can be.

"what temps/conditions are you looking at for "3 season"? what temps/conditions are you looking at for "winter"? " @Mike – I will answer this first to ensure we are all on the same page going forward. Also instead of just narrowing it down to 2 groups I will do three. 1st – Day temps ranging from 80-100 nighttime temps 40-60 (summer) 2nd – Day temps 70-90, nighttime 30-40 (shoulder or inclement weather) 3rd – Day temps in the 30-50, nighttime temps 10-30 (winter) Your response provides a lot of insight so thank you. As what you mentioned was what I was trying to accomplish — use most if not all of the items as double using but just adding a different layer. @Dale – I hear what you are saying and like I mentioned in the first post most of my hiking at least initially will be done in the dead of summer where temps wont vary too much but of course I want to build a kit that can be built upon. Which is why I am asking. @Owen — Thanks for the first hand experience Owen it helps to see what works for other especially those who run warm like myself. As you mentioned nothing beats first hand experience just didn't want to buy an extra piece if it wasn't going to get used. I like the idea of a synthetic type mid to either hike in or put on during stops which would regulate moisture better then use at camp. If I really needed the warmth like in #2 situation above I could bring a light weight puffy. @Jerry — I am okay with the warmth penalty of the fleece/synthetic at least in the first 2 scenarios scene I run warmer anyways plus I like the dual uses during the day as well as across scenarios where I would just replace the insulation layer (puffy). I think I am now leaning this way, any specific gear recommendations would be helpful. Scenario 1: Cap2, Marmot Reactor 1/2 zip/Thermawrap,o2 rainshield Scenario 2: Same as above except add light weight puffy, ideas or input here? Scenario 3:Same as #1 adding heavier puffy and 3 layer jacket – again any input or ideas here? Does anyone have any first hand experience with the Marmot or Thermawrap, are those decent choices? Does anyone else have any suggestions for items around that weight and price range or less? As always I appreciate any feedback.

looking at the Reactor it's a basic 100 wt fleece layer which I think would be a perfect choice in scenario 1 and as a mid layer in 2&3- light fleece is great as it works well on the move, provides warmth even when damp, can be easily wrung/shook out and is relatively cheap. the Reactor weighs 12 oz, I'd also look at Montbells Chameece jacket-8.8 oz and Mountain Hardwears Microchill- in a pullover 8.4 oz- both of those might be cheaper too??? if you're in a drier clime, I would look at a light down jacket or even vest- Montbell has a couple of options that won't break the bank; if it's a wetter clime something synthetic might be better scenario 3 I really like the Montbell Alpine Light, it's been around for a long time but offers very nice features at a reasonable pricepoint- it's also cut a little roomier so it layers over another lighter puffy giving you a nice option if you ever visit a colder clime with the above, no need for a 3 in 1 jacket- you'll have a insulating layer and you'll already have a shell (and a mid-layer to boot!)

I had laugh at the excel comment :-)

the Reactor weighs 12 oz, I'd also look at Montbells Chameece jacket-8.8 oz and Mountain Hardwears Microchill- in a pullover 8.4 oz- both of those might be cheaper too??? Maybe I am looking at an outdated Reactor but it is listed at 8.4oz but thanks for the recommendations I will look into both of those. Reactor Link: http://www.backcountry.com/marmot-reactor-half-zip-fleece-jacket-mens I am in a drier climate, west, but I do like the versatility of fleece/synthetic as I was looking at the Thermawrap vest for the same scenarios as you listed but I won’t completely rule out a light down considering the weight savings as well as volume savings – it will ultimately come down to price. with the above, no need for a 3 in 1 jacket- you'll have a insulating layer and you'll already have a shell (and a mid-layer to boot!) I mean to say an actual waterproof shell/jacket not the O2 rainshield I will be wearing for scenario 1 and possibly scenario 2. It will be of the goretex like materials and my understanding is that those are of the 3 layer type jackets. If I am wrong then I apologize. Anyways, thanks for the input much appreciated. Edit: Add Link

ahhh 3 layer on your shell (vs 2.5)- got ya, I thought were talking about one of those "3 in 1" coats :)