Would you trust a downmat?

[Jesse Hutchinson]

As strictly a winter pad, I have a downmat 9 deluxe…its amazing…but with winter being slightly harder on gear potentially, would you trust it as your only mat? One leak, and you are looking for boughs and contemplating a fire… Thoughts?

[Tipi Walter]

Would I trust an Exped downmat on a winter trip?? No way. I was on a 19 day trip into the Snowbird backcountry in November 2013 when on Day 1 my wonderful Exped blew a baffle and so on Day 2 I had to do a 12 mile detour just to retrieve an emergency cached Thermarest hidden under a log. Cached. Blown Exped baffle. But any inflatable pad could die on a winter trip and so I also carry this Ridgerest Solar at 3.5R. In an emergency I can fold up the Solar pad and get 7R for my torso with my pack under my legs.

[John Vance]

If yours in the original 9 I would trust it but the UL versions have been less than reliable. I got rid of my UL7 Synmat and downmat and currently rock an xtherm year round. My son is using my old down mat 7 that has a couple hundred nights on it and still no problems but 34oz as I recall.

[Justin Baker]

Get an xtherm and put it on top of a foam pad… then never worry about it.

[Jenny A]

I have the same pad as the the OP and have been very happy with it. I have upwards of 30 nights on the thing and would trust it as much as any other pad, more than some. As mentioned, the UL products tend to fail more frequently (judging from reviews I've read and seeing returns where I work), but the heavier originals seem to do better overall. The suggestion to carry both an XTherm and CCF pad is a good one, though: light weight still, good insulation, and a bit of redundancy in case the inflatable fails. Plus you have a seat pad in the CCF.

[Stephen M]

For me it more the question would I trust any inflatable 100%. During winter I always carry a full length ridgerest as I like using the ridgerest for sitting around camp and the inflateable is for comfort and to add wamth.

[Valerie E]

My experiences (so far) have been different. I've taken my Synmat UL7 MW on 2 long-ish trips (Thru-hike of JMT 2014 & Thru-hike of CT 2015), as well as several shorter trips (3-6 nights each). I don't baby it, but I also don't use it except inside my tent, and I inflate it with a schnozzel bag. I'm hoping to do ~1000 miles next summer, and I plan on taking the same UL7 with me (SO comfy!). I do agree, however, that inflatables are — by their very nature — always a little bit risky, and more so in winter conditions where losing that insulation under your sleeping bag could be courting hypothermia.

[Roger Caffin]

Yes. You know, I have many different air mats, some from up to 20 years ago, and none of them have had any problems. I will hazard a guess that some failures may have been due to over-inflation and rough treatment. Just a thought. Cheers

[Jesse Hutchinson]

I got the pad strictly for winter, and what an amazing sleep… I also used it on a canoe trip on a northern river where it rained 10 of 12 days and snowed the other two .. Because of the comple lack of campsites, I simply found a flat boggy area, inflated the pad, set up my tarp and went to sleep…others in tents had a lousy time. That pad floated me a bit while I slept, and made my life super easy…but what if it had failed??? I am thinking now that for winter my ridgecrest solar, and my prolite is best…but what now to do with the downmat?? I want to trust it, but it is not bombproof…and it cost so much..

[Owen McMurrey]

Same debate here. Trust is a strong word, since any inflatable can fail. My Downmat UL7 has a *very*(if I didn't sack out for 12hrs at a time in winter, I'd probably never know) slow leak that I can't find, but I'll use it until it starts being a problem. The Big Agnes Insulated Air Core that preceded it was the same way, and I used it until I woke up on the ground at 20-something degrees one morning-thankfully on an overnighter. My brain says Z-Lite or Ridgerest under the Prolite small(never an issue with it, or a 15+yr old Guidelite self-inflator), but my back says Downmat, or the newer Hyperlite when it's not cold, 'til they die. Less an issue on short local trips, and I love the Expeds' comfort, but hate feeling like I'm rolling the dice when I take off for a week or two with no backup.

[Crow]

I ended up having problems with both of my Exped Downmat UL7s. One blew a baffle and the other started shooting feathers out of the valves (would have still worked in a pinch). They replaced both free of charge, but I wonder how long it will be until the same thing happens again. I trust the Downmat Lite 5’s construction more than the others with internal baffles. It’s cheaper, uses direct welds rather than baffles, and heavier fabric.  Not as high of an R-value but still plenty comfortable, reasonably light, and offers a decent amount if insulation.  Neither my Downmat Lite 5 nor Downmat XP9 have failed yet, but I’d trust the Lite 5 over the XP9’s baffled design.

Air mattresses are inherently untrustworthy and as much as I hate the bulk, I don’t go without a full-length RidgeRest as well in the winter.  Although Exped’s repair kids are good, I don’t trust my ability to locate a slow leak in sub-freezing conditions.

[John Vance]

I had two failures on the UL7 down mat and moved to an Xtherm…no issues.  I also have an older downmat 7 that has been through the wringer and works just great.  If yours is the heavier 9 version you should be fine but I would still back up with a ccf pad.  I use the ccf in conjunction with my Xtherm in very cold temps at night, but I also use it during the day and around camp for standing, sitting, and kneeling.  I purchased a half dozen at the REI 50th anniversary sale.  3/8ths inch hexagon patterned and branded REI 50th anniversary.  Amazing longevity and very versatile.  The newer foams are even better.

[Jeffs Eleven]

I’m curious about this also, so after reading this (and noting the original posting dates) I asked our returns guy (we sell both Exped and Thermarest) about the frequency of returns.  He said we probably get about the same amount of returns from each brand.  Numerically we get more Exped returns, but we sell more Exped also.  He then noted that 80% (non-scientific) of the returns were for dog claws or something of the like.

There were some of the Winterlites that had problems last (?) winter, but I haven’t heard of that recently.

vvv- We posted at the same time.  Eeesh..  More responses plz!!  (with dates)

[Kathy H]

I too, had baffles blow on 2 different Exped mats, which really broke my heart, as I loved them.  Finally switched to an Xtherm, and despite the potato chip bag sound, it is definitely the warmest pad I have ever used, and no horrible baffle issues.

I was talking to a friend who works at a nearby REI.  For his store, he says he has heard a lot about the baffles issue with Exped, and that many of the returns are because people don’t like the vertical baffle system quite as much.  He said number one reason for NeoAir returns is the crinkly sound.  Although he said that Xtherms do not get returned as much as the regular NeoAirs.

 

[Jeffs Eleven]

But were there many actual failures of the pads, or just people unhappy with them?

[Crow]

I’ve bought a few dozen mats over the years, for myself and friends, and most have been Exped, because I do find them to be the best brand available, despite experience with the Downmat failures.  Their valves don’t fail and offer a significantly better experience.  Their fabrics are among the best.  Their designs are consistently comfortable (for me at least – the vertical baffle design is best for a good night’s sleep on an air mat).  Many of the ones I’ve bought have been discounted store returns from the REI garage sale, which have easily-mended holes.  They have been every bit as reliable as those I’ve bought brand new.  It’s pretty stupid that so many people switch mats because of a tiny puncture, when they are so easy to fix. Shopping an REI garage sale is a great way to see the variety of ways that different brands/models of pads fail, and it can be an inexpensive way to try out some pads you wouldn’t give a chance at full prive.

My first instinct was to put trust in Thermarest, but their fabrics and construction quality isn’t greater that other brands, and their valves and shapes are limiting (for instance, no rectangular version of a Prolite).  The legacy of the Thermarest name comes from their heavy-fabric rectangular non-cutout foam pads of old and Ridgerests and has nothing to do with their air mattresses.  The XTherm and XLite work for some, but I cannot stand them (my first mat was an XLite) from a comfort standpoint.  They can and do have internal baffle failures as well, and I’m pretty sure any baffled air mat is subject to this with enough time and use.  It’s a bigger problem with Big Agnes Q-Core mats in my experience, although in BAs case, the welds fail on the outer fabric rather than internally, suggesting that the welds are more secure but that their welding process compromises the integrity of the outer fabric.  I also find the quilted design comfortable to try out but horrible to spend a whole night on.

I did really like the Prolite & Prolite Plus, but find Exped’s SIM & SIM Lite to be better options (I still use short SIM Lite UL pads as well as a 50×77 SIM Lite UL Duo), and self-inflating mats are the most comfortable type in my opinion.  That said, the holes punched through the foam to cut weight on lightweight models accelerate delamination of the foam from the outer material, and you end up with an ever-expanding bulge.  I’ve only experienced this with a Prolite so far, but am sure that given enough time the SIM Lites will fail similarly.  So far though, the SIM’s have taken the most abuse and been the most reliable pad I’ve experienced.  Were I to go on a very long hike today where reliability mattered and it wasn’t winter (such as a typical AT hike), the SIM Lite would be my choice of mat.

When weight and space don’t matter, e.g. for car camping, the Megamat (just an oversized SIM really) is the greatest portable mattress in existence.  I say that having tried other similar offerings like Thermarest’s LuxuryMAP…nothing comes close in comfort to the Megamat.

For winter camping, I really love the Downmats, the baffled ones just scare me due to experiencing two UL7 failures.  I’ve camped in single digits with nothing but a Ridgerest under me, and it wasn’t pleasant although it was manageable.  For me, there is no greater sleep than being out in frigid temperatures with a Downmat underneath and a down sleeping bag on top.  I’m not worried about danger if a mat fails but I won’t be comfortable.  If I were going to be away from civilization for weeks on end in harsh cold conditions, the Downmat Lite 5 plus a Ridgerest feels like the safest bet to me for a down-filled mat, and a baffled Synmat seems like a safer option than a Downmat in general since you don’t have to worry about the insulation leaking out (however risk of baffle failure is the same and insulation/weight ratio is significantly worse).  Really, I think the Downmat Lite 5 is the true unsung hero due to it’s reliability, decent R-value when added to a CCF, and having a bargain price.  Definitely prefer Exped’s UL pumpsack to the mini pump it comes with though.

[Nick Smolinske]

I agree about the Downmat Lite 5 – it’s really a wonderful pad that doesn’t get as much attention as it deserves. Probably because there are lighter options out there. But the durability is unmatched.

I’ve done quite a bit of winter Grand Canyon hiking with it, and have had no problems despite the GC’s reputation for pokey ground. The fabric is very tough and worth the weight for me. When considering all of the gear I bring, and the consequences of failure, pad failure ranks very high on the list.

[Jerry Adams]

I’ve had two Thermarest Prolites delaminate.  A bubble forms under my shoulder and gradually gets bigger.

I used to get onto my pad by putting my hand on the pad an putting all my weight on it.  I don’t do that anymore.  It still failed but it was after years of usage.  Maybe 200 nights.

For the last failure I first noticed it on day 1 of a 9 day trip.  I just ignored it even though it got bigger day by day.  Since the bubble was where I put my shoulder, it didn’t really matter that much.

I think the failure happens when I completely compress the foam and maybe then slide sideways a bit.

I noticed that the new Thermarest Prolite that I just bought is a little different.  It weighs about 1 ounce more, and the foam is more stiff.  The fabric is different than the older model that delaminated.  I assume they redesigned it to reduce delamination.

[Tipi Walter]

The continuing saga of sleeping pads, alas.  My history with Thermarest goes back to 1981 when I switched out my old Ensolite floppy pad for a new orange metal-valve $29 thermy.

In these last 36 years I’ve had over 40 thermarests in all configurations and all used extensively to points of failure.  Camp Rest, Ultralight, Base Camp, 40th Anniversary (three of them), Standard, Classic, Toughskin, Prolite and Prolite Plus, Backpacker model,  Explorer model (Campmor rejects?), Trail Pro, NeoAir All Season, black Ridgerest, Ridgerest Solar,

The list is long because the dang company keeps changing the names.  You have to be a Pad Scholar to keep up with all of their model changes in the last 40 years.  Who the heck remembers their Toughskin pad?

How many delamination-bubbles have I had since 1981?  About 12 or 15; and we’re talking BLOWOUTS.  See this thread—

https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/126982-Alas-Poor-Thermarest?highlight=

Or check out another 40th Anniversary pad with the same failure—

So, Exped and Thermarest share the same wonderful reality—They’re gonna blow!

There are solutions to this Inflatable dilemma and I have found mine—Take my usual Thermarest inflatable along with a rolled up Ridgerest Solar ccf pad.  When the inflatable dies in the field you double up the ccf Solar and get 7R for torso and waist.  I also carry an emergency NeoAir and the smallest neoair they make.  So far it sits in my pack and hasn’t been used, but in a pinch when the inflatable dies I blow up the NeoAir and place the Solar pad on top—the solar provides the warmth while the neoair provides the comfort.  Voila, problem fixed.

[Jerry Adams]

I hate taking spare sleeping pads.  Not a lightweight solution.

For the two delaminations I’ve had, I can just continue to use it for a week.  Make sure and carefully look at it at the end of each trip and replace if needed.

I can see how someone could conclude from all this not to have a lightweight inflatable pad : )

On the other hand, if I get 200 nights out of a piece of gear, that’s not too bad, especially if it’s lightweight and I’m trading that off for reduced durability.

The old Guidelite that didn’t seem to delaminate weighs 2 pounds as compared to 1 pound for the Prolite.  I still have my old one.

[Crow]

“The list is long because the dang company keeps changing the names. You have to be a Pad Scholar to keep up with all of their model changes in the last 40 years. Who the heck remembers their Toughskin pad?”

That’s for sure.  I saw a Toughskin I believe once at a used backpacking supply store.  I truly don’t understand their name choices or categorization which make no sense and just keep changing every few years along with material colors.  And why do they make rectangular NeoAirs but not Prolites?  That’s what initially led me to switching to Exped for SIM mats, since I wanted mateable mats.  I will give credit to Exped for having better names, but they annoyingly sell some pads only in overseas markets, which has made getting my hands on ones I’ve wanted a real pain at times.

All gear has a limited lifespan though, especially flexible things – and even more especially flexible airproof or waterproof things, much as I wish I could buy something good once and be done.  Even the Ridgerests stretch out and become longer and thinner (and thus less insulating) with time, though that’s far better than a catastrophic failure – I have a couple Classics (same as the Solar minus 0.1 R-value and no silver coating) I cut to fit the back of my station wagon that need retrimmed a few times a year so they don’t keep the hatch from closing, and the sides I cutout to match the car perfectly don’t line up right anymore.

I am tending to shift to cheaper gear with time and experience as a result and when I need another self-inflater I’ll probably give the REI Trekker a go, which seems like a very practical pad although the adhesive might be worse and fail sooner.  It’s getting hard to justify paying a hefty premium to save a couple ounces when it keeps wearing out.

[Edward Barton]

Anyone have experience with downmat 9 series failures?

Edit: Also wondering about incorporating a pad-sleeve in a tyvek groundsheet for added pad protection.

[Crow]

I believe Tipi’s failed mat was a Downmat XP9.  The TT9 with individually-replaceable baffles can’t have that problem, but at over a half pound more, it has a significant weight penalty.  The TT9 and XP9 are *completely* different designs.

[Jenny A]

I have a Downmat XP9 that was purchased at an REI Garage Sale some years ago.  The reason for the return was that it was “too warm”.  Ha!  It has the integrated two-hand pump on the underside, and I love that thing!  Do I trust it?  Yes, as far as I trust any inflatable pad.  This is definitely NOT part of my lightweight kit, and it only gets used when basecamping in shoulder seasons.  I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 75 nights on it over the past 5-7 years, including 3 weeks in Wyoming and Yellowstone this past very wintry September.  No failures at all…

…Until it seemed to have sprung a slow leak on a fishing trip in November.  Since I take good care of my gear and rarely experience failures of any kind, this came as a surprise.  I was loathe to use the standard immersion method of finding leaks on this down-filled mat, but Exped provided EXCELLENT customer service and fixed the leak.  That was way above and beyond the call of duty given the age of the pad.  While any pad can fail, this service certainly inclines me to purchase their products on the future.  If failure is not an option when using an inflatable pad of any kind, you gotta have a backup CCF of some kind, IMHO.

Oh, and Merry Christmas!

[Crow]

I definitely prefer to not have an integrated pump as I really prefer the pumpsack, personally.  That’s my only complaint about the XP9.

I really don’t understand the “too warm” complaints – it’s just insulation not heat-generating, and as heat rises, the sleeping bag is the more likely issue.  I use my Downmats year-round even in hot weather and don’t feel there’s any downside to that.

I totally agree about Exped’s customer service.  It’s beyond anything I’ve experienced with other brands!

Merry Christmas to you as well!

[Author]

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