Trail runners + ankle rolling

Try if you can change the title from 'trail runners + ankle rolling' to something like 'Brooks Cascadia 9 trail runners + ankle rolling' as the present title reads as a generalisation against all trail runners ?

Disclaimer: I'm not a podiatrist, you should consider seeing one. Entirely anecdotal, but this may be more related to insole support and overall shape of the shoe, rather than its height; the Cascadia 9s may be incompatible with the shape of your foot. You would probably experience similar ankle rolls with boots, if the lower is equally incompatible with your anatomy. Orthotics would probably be more helpful than boots, and perhaps even a different shoe. Again, you should probably get professional advice from a podiatrist—remember, everyone's feet are different.

For me, a rolled ankle is the end of my day, if not the end of my trip. My ankles have been more stable since I went to trail runners than they were in boots. I prefer a shoe with very little or no build up of foam at the heel. I believe that a stacked heel raises your risk of an ankle roll. The closer your ankle joint is to the ground, the more stability it has.

If you are rolling you ankle every few miles while walking then something is wrong. Most likely you need to work on proprioception. There are a variety of exercises for this that you can find online. Just balancing on one leg for periods of time is a good start. You can do this throughout the day, such as while waiting in line, etc. if it's too easy then stand on one leg with your eyes closed. There are many other good exercises, such as writing the alphabet on the ground with your big toe while balancing on the other leg.

Very much depends on YOUR ankles. I've been using Hoka One One Stinsens and Olympia 1.5s for two seasons now… both high cush under the heals… the result? Feet and knees less sore on long hikes + Zero ankle rolls. But, then, I rarely have an ankle roll in any footwear. And by rare I mean… many one every 5 years? Billy

From your description it seems this happens only later in the day, when fatigue possibly leads to a loss of concentration, and therefore less attentiveness to foot placement. Perhaps the key to solving the problem is not with new/different shoes/boots, ankle braces, etc, but what you do when that time approaches. This is a good time to take a break, slow down the pace, think about foot placement, and consider putting away the trekking poles when it gets really steep, whether up or down, so that your hands are free to assist, and so that the brain is not assigned the double task of finding solid pole placements as well as foot placements.

Trying some other shoes may be worth while. I find my Cascadia 8 are pretty narrow yet have a fair amount of heel stack and are fairly stiff around the edge meaning it is easy to step on a small rock with the edge of the shoe and start an ankle role. They also have much worse traction going downhill then up for some reason. I find ankle roles less common in either lower stack, more minimal shoes or in shoes with a nice wide and soft heal that will just squish around small rocks like the altra olympus. Really you'll probably need to try a few pairs of shoes and find what works for you though.

I also had that problem with Brooks Cascadia 9s, enough so that I took them back. I originally thought it was due to the stack height, but I think now it's more due to the stiffness of the shoe. I've been using Merrell Peaks and while the stack height is similar the tread is more flexible and heel stack is 6 mm (vs. 10 mm).

Okay, it seems like a mixture of responses: 1. I definitely think that proprioception is part of the problem, but really it's not an issue until some fatigue sets in. As I was mentioning before, I don't notice a problem until the hike is almost over, unless it's a longer hike (on my last hike it wasn't an issue until maybe half a mile from the trail head). I'm going to work on strengthening the ankles, but I also like Bob's suggestions quite a bit. Are there other things I can try if I notice my ankles getting "wobbly" towards the end of a hike? 2. In case there was any confusion, I really really like trail runners more than hiking boots because my feet are way more comfortable, and they are lighter and dry quicker. The only issue I have had has been with ankle rolling (I sprained my left ankle 6 months ago – probably should have mentioned this in the first post! Weirdly though, both ankles seem to have the rolling problem…). 3. As Ryan mentioned, I have noticed that the Cascadia 9's are quite stiff, and somewhat narrow which makes me wonder if that is contributing to the problem. The thing that is weird to me is that the rolling doesn't seem to happen only when there are a lot of obstacles in the trail – sometimes even a small rock can lead to a problem when I least expect it! There's also the issue of heel drop which some folks seem to think contributes as well. Are there other brands/types of trail runners I should consider instead, given these issues? Ryan / Paul, any suggestions? 4. One last thing: I'm not sure what Ben means by rolled ankles being the end of a day/trip. Maybe I just have a high pain tolerance (or am partially rolling an ankle? is that a thing?), but I am usually able to walk it off, and it hurts for a minute or two but then the pain goes away pretty quickly. Am I crazy?

I have had similar experiences of an ankle roll toward the end of my days. I too use cascadia 9s but I don't think it has much to do with it. I find that when I'm tired or more then often need to eat my footing will start to get sloppy and I've rolled my ankle a few times. When I notice that I'm starting to trip on rocks/ roots and stumble it's because I need to take a break.

I switched from heavier boots and have tried the Cascadias. Not sure if they’re 9s. Lots of people like them but for me they don’t have good side-to-side support and I’m likely to roll an ankle in them. I compromised and use a light mid-height boot (Salomon X Ultra Mid 2 GTX Light Trail Shoes). If you are considering orthotics, read this article.

I am an ankle roller too. I wear Cascadias and find them to be an " average " ankle rolling trail runner. There are many trail shoes that are worse. the more mileage you put on the Cascadias the less this will tend to happen. they soften with miles. for good anti ankle rolling shoes, look for a trail runner with a wide exterior heal (this does not necessarily mean the internal heal seat will be wide). one example is the Pearl Izumi N2 Trail. the trail version has a wider outside heal than the road version for just this problem. a second example is the Salomon Wings trail shoe. a nice wide exterior heal. probably the best anti roll trail runner ever made was the Montrail Vitesse. unfortunately they stopped making it around 2006.

"When I notice that I'm starting to trip on rocks/ roots and stumble it's because I need to take a break." You've just restated the 'umble rule: If you or one of your group start to mumble, or grumble or stumble it's time to take a break.

Just to be clear, I have the cascadia 8's, i'm not sure how different they are from the 9's. I also have somewhat sprain prone ankles perhaps resulting from some bad bouldering related ankle sprains over the years. And I trail run at least as much as I hike these days so my use is somewhat different then yours…in particular I'm not sure i've fully adapted to running in low/zero drop shoes yet though I'm working on it. Trecking poles are key, I even run with them. Even if they don't prevent rolls I find they make it much easier to recover from one without it turning into a trip ending sprain since you can quickly take the weight off the rolling ankle. I've also tried to train myself to fall to the ground/into the buses rather then weighting a rolling ankle. You definitely shouldn't need to go back to boots…I don't find they do that much to prevent ankle sprains as many of them suffer from the same issues we're talking about here and don't have enough ankle support to really prevent a sprain. I'm unaware of a shoe that fully prevents ankle sprains. Indeed I currently run a small quiver of shoes for different situations. I find running shoes wear out quickly and it is easy to buy previous years models at deep discounts so having a few pairs makes sense. My current favorite is the altra olympus (the unnumber pre 1.5 version which can be had super cheap a few places online). It is a maximal shoe with a very wide sole and zero drop. It tends to level out small irregularities in the trail and is great for logging miles *on reasonably maintained trails*. It also has the best blister free fit of any shoe i've used recently. The higher stack height means that it does put more stress on your ankle when sidehilling or on really rough terrain and makes a sprain more likely if you do roll an ankle so they aren't great off trail. Also the sole isn't great in terms of traction. I've also tried the hoka muffata speed in this category. It has better traction and some drop but gives me ankle and toe blisters if I don't tape my feet. I also use a minimal running shoe. Such a shoe requires much more attentive foot placement but the lower stack height puts less stress on the ankle over all…I like them for shorter days on more attention getting terrain but less so for zoning out and logging miles. I have and like the patagonia evermore in this category but patagonia's shoe line was discontinued and i'm not sure what i'll try next. Maybe something from altra. I'm still looking for the perfect medial shoe that balances maximal and minimal aspects. I liked the patagonia tsali which was softer and wider then the cascadia. I also have a pair of sportiva c-lites which have great traction but a stiff narrow heal that I find roll prone. The cascadia's are my current shoe in this category but I fine myself not using them very much.

So you roll your ankles, but do you injure them? I have rolled my ankle a few times but never actually injured myself. I rolled my ankle very badly earlier this year. I was jogging downhill in the dark in shoes tied too loose and I landed on an awkwardly shaped rock wrong. My ankle snapped almost horizontally and I fell over. I walked carefully down to camp and I was convinced I would have to limp out of there the next morning and end my multi-day trip. But I woke up and my ankle felt totally fine, just slightly sore. I spent the next 3 days walking off trail on slippery river rocks and sidehilling on steep dirt slopes without any discomfort. I had some light soreness for 2 weeks after that trip. I guess that means I have strong ankles? Btw I use minimalist shoes and they are very stable because your ankle is not rotating on a tall/stiff platform. Your foot conforms to and grips surfaces.

You asked about more minimalist ankle support than a brace. I would suggest taping your ankle (over the sock) if it only occurs near the end of a trip. If you are having problems with rolling your ankles you should probably be carrying supplies, knowledge, and practice on how to tape your ankles anyway.

"Btw I use minimalist shoes and they are very stable because your ankle is not rotating on a tall/stiff platform. Your foot conforms to and grips surfaces." For me, this was my main problem with the Cascadia's. Instead of my foot/shoe rotating together on the bumps in the ground (often small rocks), my foot would rotate in the shoe and then my ankle would roll. It happened very early in my hike so it wasn't fatigue, but I also didn't give them a chance to "soften" and took them right back to REI, since I've never rolled my ankle so many times in a short span. I tried tightening up the shoes to mitigate the rolling but it still happened. I prefer both lower stack height drop and a more flexible shoe that wraps around rocks a bit. I rarely roll an ankle in those kind of shoes but if I do I recover very quickly since I'm already low to the ground and can feel it happening very quickly. E.g. great proprioception. Going back to boots only makes this problem worse, so definiltey stick with trail runners. My feet like the Merrell "All Out" lasts which have wide toe boxes. They clearly advertise what the stack height and heel drop is, if that matters to you. The Peaks are their most protective and cushioned trail runner, and then go down from there to the Charges, Blaze, etc. Their new Terra Trail is a great concept but not ideal (poor drainage/breathability, not enough laces so loose fitting).

Interesting that this post popped up now. Last weekend I did a hike of the Burroughs Range in the Catskills, and I noticed I was rolling my feet quite a bit. This was my first trip with Brooks Cascade 9's. For years I've used New Balance trail runners and would on occasion roll my ankles, but not like with the Brooks. I just owed it to maybe needing to do a better job adjusting the laces. They don't feel sloppy, and I replaced the insole with Soles before using them. I'll have to follow this one and see how it plays out.

Cameron, I have had some pretty bad ankle injuries in the past (dislocations on each ankle), so when I roll them, it's not good. That's why I take rolling am able seriously. I know it doesn't knock everyone or like it does to me. For me, shoes with low profile soles were the trick. It took awhile to get used to. And they also seem harder on the knees and soles of the feet. But for me, the ankle stability of shoes with low heels rules.

Interesting to hear that several other people have had similar experiences with the Cascadia 9's and ankle rolling. Are there other trail runners with wider heels & less heel drop that people recommend I try? I know a few people have recommended Altras, which would seem to fit the bill… As I mentioned previously, when I roll my ankles, there is quite a bit of acute pain, but it goes away if I keep hiking (at a slower pace, obviously) for another 10-15 minutes. There's a bit of aching afterwards, but probably no more so than should be expected after a long hike. Does this count as an injury? At this point, though, the ankle rolling seems to be a major thing that stops me from going further/faster when I hike, especially since it gets worse / more frequent as the day goes on. That's why I'd like to try and get better at either preventing it from happening, or dealing with it in the first place. Thanks for all the suggestions so far – keep 'em coming! @Ben Ah, I see, makes sense.

I used to roll my ankle-a lot. Boots, trainers, didn't matter. What did matter was my core strength and how tired I was. Go to Jen Mitol's blog backpackerpt.com, and do her exercises for knees. This will strengthen your core stability muscles. Her exercises for ankles will improve proprioception. Both will eliminate the problem. Jen, we want more! More blog posts please!

I have New Balance MT1210GR trail runners – that work good for my roll-prone right ankle. The key seems to be a wide sole at the heel — with a very good heel cup inside the shoe that really locks your heel in place, coupled with a heel-area fabric that is stiff. The ones that work best for me usually have a plastic / webbing wish bone locking the heel into position like athletic tape, and an extra wedge of foam between the main some and the side of the shoe on the outside edge of the back half of the shoe. When trying them on in the store, I just sway side to side to see how the shoes react. Some are obviously easy to roll onto the outer edge. Some are really really really stable and roll resistant. I buy those :)

"Instead of my foot/shoe rotating together on the bumps in the ground (often small rocks), my foot would rotate in the shoe and then my ankle would roll." I had an interesting discussion about ankle issues with a knowledgable salesman at the Wilson's Eastside Sports in Bishop, CA. He claimed that the main thing to look for is a secure fit, particularly around the ankle area. This is consistent with other posts about heel cups, shoe construction, and different shoes for different people. In his opinion the choice of a mid or high ankle shoe may make a difference for some people, but only to the extent that a particular shoe may be snug, and not that it extends higher.