Stretch Wovens with better CFM?

I'm looking at the Montane Dynamo, Montane Puma, and Montane Jaguar. All the jackets look nicely fitted, however I've never seen a Montane jacket.

If you're in the States and going to be ordering Montane, let me know maybe we can save on the ridiculous shipping costs!

I'm in Shanghai and looking to buy in Hong Kong over Christmas. Apparently they have lower prices in Honkers than in the UK; a full selection too. I've never tried Montane on, and looking forward to it.

I was told they also have some eVent softshells on clearance (40% off). Tempting, for curiosity's sake, though not breathable enough, I reckon.

Have you looked at the Cloudveil Rayzar jacket? The combination of Dryskin Extreme in the main body areas with WB-400 on the shoulders and tops of the arm looks like a great combination for rain/wind. The jacket barely weighs more than the Serendipity, but also sports an MP3 pocket and side pockets.

WB-400 is essentially a porous membrane. While it does not breathe well, the jacket only has it on the tops of the sleeves and shoulders.

I have the current Montane Dynamo, it's slightly less wind resistant than Pertex Microlight. Didn't use it in constant high winds yet, during some gust around 25-30 mph it still feels "windproof", but cool air slowly gets in.

I like it a lot, it's durable, comfortable , has very adjustable venting, is mostly quiet and looks civilized. The only downsides I noticed yet are a missing hood and the strange cuffs.

Thanks for the suggestion Peter. But I think that dryskin is a bit too wind permeable for me, while wb400 is pretty heavy and stiff from what I hear. I do like the idea of hybrid shells…

Which brings me to Arcteryx. I inquired about their Tweave Durastretch and the "bonded-poly/polylaminate" fabric they use in their Epsilon softshells.

I was told that Tweave is the most breathable and least wind-resistant softshell material. Their Alpha Comp is like the Rayzar, with Gore-Tex hood, shoulders and outer-arms and Tweave body. These jackets sound great, but again the Tweave is not wind-resistant enough for me – it sounds like another fabric with CFM of 15-20.

Now, their polylaminate/bonded-poly fabric sounds interesting. They claim that this fabric is their second most breathable (behind Tweave Durastretch) AND their second most wind-resistant – which makes it BOTH more breathable and more wind-resistant than Powershield, without a membrane, and at half the weight.

I'm a bit dubious of this claim and still waiting for more details about the nature of this fabric.

If this is accurate, then the polylaminate/bonded-poly fabric must have a CFM of 5-10 (as Polarshield is variously rated from 6.4-10+, depending on version), while being nearly as breathable as stretchwovens such as the Schoellers.

Anyone have experience with it?

Thanks for the review Christian!

Sounds excellent, hopefully I'll get a chance to try one on.

Ah I thought you were looking for only a stretch woven. I actually ordered an Arcteryx Epsilon yesterday! I have about 8 jackets coming–size L and XL because I'm always in between–to find the right one.

Arcteryx's "bonded poly" is exactly that–two layers of polyester, laminated together, with the face made of bonded poly. I believe the bonded polyester threads produce a bit better water resistance, although I'm not sure if this results in a reduction of capillaries for breathability. The two polyester sides are laminated together, however not in the PowerShield laminate sort of way (Powershield's laminate is basically used like a glue to attach two fabrics on either side). Arcteryx assured me the laminate is really just used to attach the two materials together rather than create any sort of 3rd middle layer.

I think the bonded poly jackets are very much similar to the pile/pertex idea, but much thinner, more aesthetically pleasing, and designed for a thin, outer layer rather than a base/outer-in-one. Think Marmot DriClime jacket without the shiny outside, and laminated together rather than sewn around the edges (you know on some jackets when you rub the fabric between your fingers you can seperate the inner and outer layers–you can't do that on the Arcteryx) The inside of the jacket is a wicking polyester, I believe in square formation that allows it to move some water. The outer layer is like any nylon/polyester: densely woven with DWR to stop the wind and shed some water.

Something to note, although I'm not very sure, I think the Trident jacket is the same Polyester face without polyester-wicking inner face. This would act more like a stretch woven–1 layer of fabric. Although after sweating in a Marmot DriClime Windshirt, I will always want some inner wicking fabric on the inside of my stretch wovens.

For that matter, you should check on the marmot driclime windshirt–it is one of the legendary greats and serves most purposes of a stretch woven and more.

I have posted this here and on other forums, so feel a bit like I am shilling for schoeller. But I have a jacket out of wb400, a beyond fleece cold fushion, that I have had for several years and wear all the time, almost year round. It is clearly too hot for summer use when hiking or active, and heavy to carry for fall/spring (but fine to wear on colder days in the fall or spring), but for winter use:

I think wb400 is just about perfect for winter use. I can't think of any way it could be better for use in the winter (ok, it could be a lot lighter). But for snow and wind protection, and being warm and stretchy and confortable, and for being breathable, and never hot and steamy like a hard shell, I just love it. I wear it snowshoeing, skiing, hiking, boating, and just back and forth to work.

Peter,
could you explain again how you think powershield and polylaminates differ from eachother.
I seem to remember something like this but I'm not sure if it's correct:
Both have a stretch woven outer face (nylon/spandex in powershield, polyester in polylaminates) and both have knitted linings (thickness can differ from style to style).
In Powershield outer and inner are bonded together with an adhesive in a discontinuous pattern to the knitted lining (fleece). The discontinuous pattern makes the fabric air permeable.
The polylaminates seem to use an acrylic based porous foam, bonding inner an outer together (as explained in last TGO Magazine). I'm not sure if the fabric is air permeable.

BTW, CFM ratings for Powershield can be variable: latest Powershield O2 has CFM of 40.

Peter,

Looks like we're looking for the same thing. I've considered a DriClime or similar, but prefer something more durable, stretchy, non-shiny, more water resistant and (honestly) better looking.

My guess is that Arcteryx's bonded poly is a very tightly stretch woven polyester bonded to a fleecy polyester lining. The Epsilon SV appears in pictures to have white lining in all colors, which may account for the washed out colors; the black appears grey, I'm guessing because the face fabric is really quite thin (pertex like) and the white inner shows through.

I look forward to your impressions of those jackets you've got coming!

Michael,

I didn't mean to slag on wb400. I've got quite a thing for Schoeller fabrics myself. I really like the appearance and feel of their weaves, as well as the durability. But what makes me hesitate with wb400 (aside from weight) is that MVTR graph showing Dryskin in a dead heat with eVent but wb400 less breathable than all the membrane fabrics. Although, the folks at Shelby in Finland suggest that the wb400 tested in that case was the membraned variety.

I was suggesting wb400 because I think it is exactly what you are looking for: a warmer, windproof softshell. I haven't worn powershield, and maybe it has gotten better over the years, but it seems to get a lot of contradictory reviews about its breathability. I would be interested in using it.

In my experience, wb400 is essentially windproof, equivalent to the goretex shell I wore for 10 years. In addition to backcountry use, I wear my wb400 jacket skiing at the resort. So on innumerable times I have been on the summit in a blasting wind and subzero temps, and my face and hands absolutely freezing, and yet feel no wind or cold at all on my torso. It is so wind tight that I can feel if one tooth is open on the pocket or pitzip zippers: cold air blows in through that tiny gap.

I enjoy this forum because it makes me search for what MVTR and CFM mean. I remember that chart. I think the methodology for testing the moisture transport of wb400 must be flawed. I will never, ever, believe that goretex is even remotely more breathable or better able to transport moisture. In my experience, now in hundreds of uses of both in similar conditions: there is simply no comparison. I am almost always dry and comfortable now even under extreme exertion, say breaking trail with snowshoes while climbing a mountain; in my goretex shell I always had to zip and unzip and try to vent and yet still would be drenched in sweat.

So take that for what it is worth: one persons opinion.

Michael,

I'll put wb400 back on my list of fabrics to try based on your recommendation. I'm no expert, but I think an explanation for wb400's breathability relative to Gore-tex et al. lies in the fact that it is air permeable (has a CFM >0). There's a great explanation of this in BPL's review of WPB fabrics. It explains that two fabrics may have identical MVTR, but if fabric A has CFM of 10 and fabric B (with membrane) has CFM of 0, fabric A will be vastly more breathable.

As I mentioned, the Shelby people assert that there are two versions of wb400 – one membraned, one not. It sounds like your experience is with the latter.

What I'm really looking for is something like a windshirt – high breathability,low CFM and low insulation, but stretchy, durable, non-shiny and better lookin'. The Arcteryx fabric is interesting to me because it may satisfy these criteria and also because Arcteryx fits me great (although it really is horribly overpriced). Otherwise, based on what people have written here, I'd just buy a Patagonia Ready Mix, but Patagonia stuff is too narrow in the shoulders.

But I'm fixin on having lots of fabrics shipped over here to Shanghai. I've got high hopes for: cheap tailors + high tech fabrics.

I found an Arcteryx Epsilon AR here in Shanghai. The fabric has maybe 10% stretch, seems less wind-resistant than Powershield and is backed by a grid fleece. The fit is very nice and even without much stretch doesn't bind up any movements. But for the price it seems one gets a handsome, updated, but less wind-resistant DriClime.

Does anyone have any experience with Montbell's stretch windjackets? They make the Stretch Wind Jacket and the Stretch Light Shell Jacket (lined, ala DriClime). Breathability?

I know this thread has died, but thought I'd add my 2 cents for those doing research & wanting a 2nd opinion on Schoeller's WB400. I too have the Beyond Cold Fusion softshell. It has the zip off hood (monstrous for fitting a helmet in & i got a huge head) & pit zips.

I agree with Michael & his assessment of windproof-ness & breath ability in exactly the same conditions on the slopes & ski lift. I can feel when the front pockets are open or if I left the pit zips open. Depending on temps (cold upper 20s –> frigid = 0 or below) I'll wear it with just a base of capilene 2, capilene 3 OR powerstretch top as long as I'm active snowboarding.

I had an older 2003 or 2004 REI Powershield top that was not windproof enough & had a horrible "fleece" liner that was scratchier than wool, in comparison the wb400 has a buttery smooth interior, words don't do it justice.