Big Sky

[Nia Schmald]

I was browsing the Big Sky website and noticed that Bob is offering up to a 20 % discount for prepayment with delivery between 20 March and 19 June 2008. Sound familiar? Any takers this time around?

[Paul Huhn]

You mean if you pay now, it will take anywhere from 3 1/2 to 7 months to get it!!!!!!!!!!!!! No thanks.

[Bob Bankhead]

It's a common enough business practice these days: I run my company on your money.

It also suggests to me that his stuff may be overpriced as well. Ever hear those "No payments until 2009?" offers. Who do you think is paying the interest on that money and where do you think they hide it?

Reported high quality not withstanding, you'd have to be several bricks shy of a full load to deal with him under those conditions, especially given his proven past performance. Wasn't it P.T. Barnum who said "A fool and his money are soon parted."?

However, as we always hear….. HYOH ….. and Caveat Emptor.

[Anonymous]

But, on the other hand, wasn't it H. L. Mencken who once observed that "No one ever went broke underestimating the American public"?? Bob is still in business…..

[Denis Hazlewood]

IMHO Bob's stuff is not overpriced. The quality is superb and you can't beat the weight/floor area ratio. His new offer does sound a little like the same problem we had with Bob a year ago. I ordered and paid for my Evolution 2P 2D2V 373 days before it finally arrived, in December 2006. I've used it around 30 nights since then and I love it.

Hopefully Bob is not up to his old tricks. I'm hoping to get a "Porch" Fly for my tent. Bob says it'll be a while ("late January/February") until they are back in stock.

Evolution 2P at Gitchell Creek – Lost Coast – June 2007

[Paul Huhn]

373 days? That is rediculous no matter how good it is.

[EndoftheTrail]

Anybody placing an order — please post here so we can all have a good laugh. Thanks in advance.

[Bob Bankhead]

Why do I get the impression from all that has been said in this and previous threads that while Bob may be a highly talented designer of truly great products, he does not have a single clue as to what it takes to be a successful businessman?

Why can he not acquire the investment capital necessary to make his admittedly fantastic products a marketing success?

Many entrepreneurs are absolute geniuses at what they do, but total incompetents as businessmen. The smart and successful ones realize this early on and hire what's missing.

If Bob could pull this together, I have no doubt he'd be both highly successful and highly profitable.

But then, after 40 years as a professional quality manager, what do I know? Ignore me. I rant.

Wandering Bob

[Richard Scruggs]

Don't think of myself as "missing a full load of bricks" all the time, but do confess to ordering a tent from Big Sky late last summer. I ordered a standard version that appeared likely to be "in stock" and did not add on a lot (or even any) fancy options. No carbon poles. No porch. No "superlight" fly. Just the basics, still very light.

Delivery was prompt, within a few weeks time frame as I recall, and I was pleased with the tent's design & quality.

I did have an issue with some of the velcro attachments on the pole sleeves of the fly not appearing to align exactly with velcro on the tent body. Bob remedied the issue by having me ship the fly back (at his expense) and then returning the fly (again at his expense, with shipping expedited shipping) with the velcro corrected just fine.

Emails between Bob and me regarding the velcro issue were speedy, with his replies always provided within 24 hours as was the case when I first sent him emails to ask about the tent's features before placing an order. Bob even called me to confirm the shipping method needed to assure that I would have the fly and tent returned when needed.

I post these observations because, as was the case when I decided to order the tent, I believe someone just can't be as bad as some have made Bob sound — not when it was evident that he had invested a great deal of time and effort to create such a fine tent and bring it to market. The success of of his design and production efforts, as it seemed to me, indicated that he had pride in the quality of his product. And that pride seemed inconsistent with a total disregard for the satisfaction of folks who might want to enjoy his tents, too. So I dropped a few bricks from my load, and placed my order.

From my experience with Big Sky, my trust in Bob was well-placed, and I would order again from his company.

Balanced against Big Sky's history of problems reported in other forums here about unfilled and delayed orders, it also seems that Big Sky has a very good reputation for the innovation and quality of its tents. At least that's my understanding based on reviews I've read about the product itself, including reviews at BPL. I'd be interested to know if anyone has seen a bad review of Big Sky's tents, as opposed to reports of customer dissatisfaction with the poor handling of orders or pricing practices?

This current thread appears to have resulted solely from Big Sky posting on its web site its pricing policy with discounts for advance payment arrangements even though the tents covered by the policy wouldn't be available until sometime late next spring. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe only one of the comments thus far posted in this thread, has reported a greatly delayed order based that poster's personal experience in dealing with Big Sky. That person apparently is pleased with the tent (nice photo, too), aside from the delay.

I appreciate the efforts by others to relate their own personal experiences with any gear purveyor so that I am better informed of possible risks or rewards of the gear or the seller of the gear. In Big Sky's case, I'm glad that I was "several bricks shy of a full load" on the day that I decided to test my judgment and place an order.

The tent is definitely a fine full-featured tent weighing in at right about 3 pounds. I know from postings I've read in various BPL forums, and reviewed Carol Crooker's interview with Bob, that Big Sky has had difficulties in the past in meeting demand for a very nice product. All those resources were considered by me before my order was placed for a Big Sky tent.

Now, I believe from my own experience that Bob does care about his customer satisfaction — just as he cares about tent quality. I wish him great success in both areas.

JRS

[Sven Klingemann]

OK – Bob may have had his challenges BUT! He is actively working on the customer satisfaction side (hiring!) and I have been e-mailing with him with regards to my experiences with his tent(s). Communication has been great and he has been very gracious in offering to fix/add options for free that could improve my existing setup. Granted – I have been frustrated in the past but at some point you have to move on. I also wish Bob the best of luck.
S.

[k sebler]

It seems to me that if your company was in good standing with its bank or investors that you'd borrow the money THERE. It is illogical (and fiscally unsound)to give away 20% of your profit if the money could be borrowed for less than 1% a month; that is, unless there is 'trouble in Denmark' and your bank and investors have given you the 'cold shoulder'. Remember that they they would be privy to more financial details than US.

kurt

[Sven Klingemann]

First of all, just because BS has a 20% sale on ONE OF THEIR TENTS does not mean that they have to borrow money. Not sure where that idea would come from. Second, they are pry still making a profit on the tent even after a 20% price break.
Just because you have a very limited sale does not make you bankrupt …

[EndoftheTrail]

Here's what I gather — both from my own extensive email exchanges with Bob Molen himself — and reading about other people's experience:

1. If you have questions, Bob will answer your email very quickly — same day much more often than not.

2. If you wish to buy, Bob will also respond very quickly.

3. If — like the poster above — you buy an "off the shelf" model without mods AND Bob just happens to have one on hand — his response will also be lightning fast.

4. BUT — If you pay up and Bob has nothing to deliver — then suddenly, he's in China a lot and can't communicate with you (which is bogus). You get NO updates, follow up's, etc. for months and months beyond the supposed "expected delivery date".

Even a monkey can be extremely responsive when things are going well. What separates professionals from fly-by-nights is when things AREN'T going well — in that case, does the seller continue to be responsive, to keep buyers informed — and to do his very best to make it right for his buyers? Or does he go hiding for months — like Bob Molen???

Basically, it's when things don't go well that you can truly distinguish the good from the bad.

[John S.]

Maybe Bob could hire a chimp?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071204/ap_on_sc/chimp_memory_15

Young chimp beats college students By MALCOLM RITTER, AP Science Writer
Tue Dec 4, 6:46 PM ET

NEW YORK – Think you're smarter than a fifth-grader? How about a 5-year-old chimp? Japanese researchers pitted young chimps against human adults in tests of short-term memory, and overall, the chimps won.

[k sebler]

" Re: BS on 12/04/2007 13:34:08 MST
First of all, just because BS has a 20% sale on ONE OF THEIR TENTS does not mean that they have to borrow money. Not sure where that idea would come from. Second, they are pry still making a profit on the tent even after a 20% price break.
Just because you have a very limited sale does not make you bankrupt …"

sale
n.
1. The exchange of goods or services for an amount of money or its equivalent.

loan
n.
1.
a. Something lent for temporary use.

If he gave 20% off and SHIPPED the item immediately (exchanging money for goods), that is having a 'sale'. Just like the ethical outdoor goods suppliers do.

If you pay him today, but receive your goods in, let's say, 6 months (if the moon aligns with mars), all-the -while your 'investment' is at risk, that is a 'loan' paying 20% interest. If you believe that your investment wouldn't be at risk, ask the hundreds of folks who were duped the first time he offered this 'deal'- THEY will tell you the difference between a loan and a sale..

kurt

[Sven Klingemann]

Look,
I do not agree with Bob's past business decisions/tactics. I myself had to wait for six months to get my tent. Do I believe that a lot of people are still p*d off? Sure. Do I believe that Bob can and will improve customer services? Yes, I do.
The fact that Bob is offering a 20% discount on one of his models does not mean that he has financial difficulties and the previous e-mails do not contradict this statement. The fact that this sale offer may incite people to buy a tent and lead to a (certainly reduced) profit is also not contradicted by any of the previous e-mails.
If Bob really needed the money he would be better served by getting a loan from a bank. This is ASSUMING that (a) he needs the money to survive and (b) that people would buy the same tent at the full retail price, neither of which we know or are certain about.
If Bob is not in need of any type of loan and if his sale incited people to buy the tent therefore creating profit, then this decision makes business sense. Does it make sense for people to invest in Bob's tent with (perceived)uncertainty about delivery and/or delivery time? That is a totally different question.

[EndoftheTrail]

Frankly, I don't care if BS needs cash or whether this is a loan or a sale or whatever…

The only thing that matters is that Bob Molen is trying — again — to suck cash out of the buying public — with nothing on hand to sell. "March to June" doesn't sound like much of a firm delivery schedule to me — no difference really from the old "4 to 6 weeks" delivery that he used on people over the last 2 years.

So again, folks, please post here after you've forked over the cash so we can all have a good laugh! :)

[Richard Scruggs]

of which anyone has personal knowledge?

Last week? Last month? Three months ago? Six months ago?

To judge wether Big Sky is actually rehabilitating itself, some perspective seems fair and relevant.

Or is Big Sky rage like the Civil War which, at least for some, will never to be over and done with. As in that old song from way down in Dixie — "A long time not forgotten."

As for paying upfront for a tent that you're informed at the outset will not be delivered until next spring, in exchange for a discount of the tent's price — is anyone being forced to enter into that arrangement?

I doubt it.

Or can it be that anyone who's considering a purchase from Big Sky on-line is wholly unaware of Big Sky's history, even thought it's been spread far and wide, and/or can it be that someone fails to do any research uncovering that history before laying out the money for such a large payment with delayed delivery? I doubt these two hypos really exist, either.

To illustrate, a google search of the name "Bob Molen" by a potential customer would produce this link to Carol Crooker's interview last August with Bob, as well as other links that describe prior experiences with Bob & Big Sky:

http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Molen_Bob_994289429.aspx

Just curious about why there would be any objection to judging Big Sky on the basis of its actual recent history with orders, rather than merely assuming that it's just more "bad business as it used to be" for orders placed today and forever in the future.

It's more helpful to learn about all the experiences that anyone has had with Big Sky. The more recent the better. And good experiences as well as bad.

But don't overlook the fact that everyone is free to buy from Big Sky, or not buy. And with the internet, anyone who buys can easily do so with eyes wide open.

For me, I sure do like that tent.

JRS

[EndoftheTrail]

I totally agree that all experiences/feedback should be looked at — with greater weight placed on the more recent ones.

BS website lists Feathered Friends — a very reputable company — as a BS dealer. Just a few weeks ago, when a hiker friend was looking for an Evolution 2P2D tent, I warned him about BS and steered him to FF instead. What we found out was that FF was clean out of Evolution tents, and when FF tried to contact BS, they too got no reply!

This goes back to my post above — when things are well and there are tents to sell — you get great response from Bob. But when he's out of tents, etc., he simply doesn't respond — even to Feathered Friends, his own dealer!!!

[Anonymous]

I noticed in the BPL gear reviews that anyone who owns or has tried the Big Sky Evolution 2P is very happy with the end product rating it a 5 out of 5.

I also wonder if how many of the above negative comments were created by people running short on patience or worse yet those just padding their BPL rating?

Another observation / testament to Big Sky is I’ve never seen any of their products listed in Gear Swap.

Funny thing few people want to eat at an empty restaurant… Yet they complain about the wait to be seated at a popular establishment, the service or even the price for dinner.

[Richard Scruggs]

Your Feathered Friends example is the most recent "bad" Big Sky story I can recall hearing about, covering the past several months or more. But the scenario it presents does not appear to be an example of someone who actually ordered and paid for a tent, then got a delivery runaround.

Interesting is the following recommendation (found on one of BPL's forums for late September) where someone else also referred folks to Feathered Friends for Big Sky tents:

"For those out there who have been interested in a Big Sky tent but not sure about the delivery issues, Feathered Friends in Seattle has tents in stock!

"I saw the Evolution 2P 2D shelter on display. You can trust FF in terms of inventory and ship time."

The above posting prompted two other posters to reply.

One reply thanked the poster for the tip and said he was going to go to the store to check out the tent. Don't see any further posting by that person about what happened if/when he went to the store — good, bad, or indifferent.

The other reply to the posting was frustrated, but not by Big Sky, as follows:

"Maybe you can trust them for shipping. But it seems that you certainly can't trust them to make a working website…

"Don't they know that this scares customers away?

"I coudln't afford the tent anywyas, I just like looking around like I can! :)"

Evidently, the above poster was venting about difficulty accessing Feathered Friends' website.

To my knowledge, and considering your friend's experience and what's known from the above two replies to a similar referral, Big Sky's score for the past three months (the time frame since Carol Crooker's interview with Bob):

One satisifed customer (me)

One sold-out distributor (Feathered Friends) as of the date your friend inquired about availability of a tent

One email inquiry by Feathered Friends for your friend to Big Sky that had not been answered as of . . . (or ever???)

One unknown result of a poster's intent to go to Feathered Friends to check out the tents

Another poster frustrated with the website of Feathered Friends when he attempted to check there for the tent

A pretty skinny sampling of experiences with Big Sky over the past three months or so — and inclusive given all the other facts that are unknown. Like, how many orders have been placed with Big Sky during that time period. And how many of those orders have been filled is pretty important.

Folks who just plain don't trust Big Sky to deliver are most likely not ordering anything from Big Sky. And folks who do trust Big Sky to deliver are placing orders — and, at least as it would seem so far, none of those folks have had an experience that causes them to protest loud and far.

I supposes there's a third option: Maybe no one (except me) has ordered a tent from Big Sky during the time frame since Carol interviewed Bob for BPL. If that's the case, I received my tent with no delay and no one else has been frustrated waiting for a tent to arrive by now as promised.

Sounds like things have improved.

JRS

[EndoftheTrail]

"Sounds like things have improved."

Maybe. Maybe not. But I think most of us can agree on the following observations:

1. Complaints have all but disappeared in the last few months.

2. BS tent owners love their tents and never re-sell them.

3. But positive posts (e.g. hey guys I ordered my tent and it came in and I loved it…) are ALSO near non-existent in the last few months!

My take — based on the above:

1. BS makes excellent tents — hence they are never sold or traded.

2. Most all early buyers have finally gotten their tents delivered — hence complaints have finally petered out.

3. Most everyone is leery of buying — thus we get very few new posts — positive or negative!!!

4. Due to (3) above — Bob Molen is doing his 20% discount program again to fan up new interests — and cashflow.

My own stance is that folks should NOT rush in to prepay because Bob Molen simply doesn't have a positive track record yet! Maybe he will eventually — but until I see a pattern of new, positive feedback — I simply won't recommend him no matter how good his tents. BUT, if he builds up an inventory where you pay up and get your tent delivered pronto — then that would be different.

[Nia Schmald]

Ok, since it's fun to speculate on what Bob is up to in this little backpackers soap opera I'll do my attempt at brain reading.

Bob wants to reduce costs by using Chinese manufacturing. In order for this to work everything needs to be done in a significant volume.

The necessary upfront costs are more than Bob has on hand or is willing to risk.

So instead of putting up his own money he goes to customers and asks them to front the bill.

The problem can arise when Bob still doesn't get enough orders to fill the manufacturing quota. If this happens he can either eat the cost of manufactured in smaller numbers (having already eaten the discount he offered) or try and delay and get more customers to front him the money.

The other cottage industry vendors have generally done there own sewing or hired a small time outfit. Since they are the operation they can predict with much greater accuracy when an item will be available. Down side of course is that they are depending on a small group of people and if something happens to even one it can have a significant impact.

Seems like Bob might be trying to grow a little too big a little too fast.

Just speculation of course. And really of no consequence.

[Brian Kelly]

Just to add to Nia's comments, the problems of a small order to a factory overseas can be compounded not just at the "cut and sew" level, but at the sourcing level as well. If you are a big player (or have a big order), you can often get preference over the little guy who is just hitting the minimums for an order. So, if your order for fabric gets bumped two weeks to fill the needs of a bigger customer, you just lost two weeks on your delivery time. That loss of time may mean additional delays at the factory as you have missed your scheduled production window. Add in another couple of weeks to a month. So now you are already 1 – 2 months behind and they haven't even sewn a single tent!

Now, this doesn't explain why it took the many other months for previous customers to get their tents, but it starts to put a little perspective on things.

Perhaps BS could benefit by looking into domestic production on a smaller scale? Domestic production is more expensive, but in comparison TarpTents are made here in the States and are still very competitively priced. Big Sky tents have gotten excellent reviews, so I would think most potential customers would pay the additional cost if it came down to it.

[Tom Beno]

I'm the guy who posted on the other thread (that mentioned BSI tents at Feathered Friends in Seattle), thanking the original poster for mentioning it. I went to FF ten days later and they did indeed have a single tent there…it came home with me.

I subsequently sent a couple of emails to BSI with some minor technical questions, which were answered almost immediately even though I sent the notes late at night. I can't speak to any order issues with Bob (since I didn't order from him directly) but I can say he's quick to answer simple questions and FF certainly did have a tent in stock.

[Author]

Posts