Topic

Castolin 1450 butane, propane and propylene mix brazing fuel canister for stove use?

  • This topic is empty.
Viewing 7 posts - 1 through 7 (of 7 total)
Art Simon BPL Member
PostedAug 4, 2015 at 10:28 pm

Hi,

I’ve got an esoteric fuel question. I was having trouble finding a Lindal valve fuel canister for my Fire Maple FMS-100T stove when I was traveling in France last month. I ended up using a Castolin 1450 brazing cartridge that I found at a hardware store. It had the Lindal valve, and it worked great, but the gas mix of butane, propane and notably propylene isn’t typical for stove fuel.Castolin 1450

A cursory google search makes propylene sound like a good stove fuel:

“Propylene (C3H6) is a colourless fuel gas with a naturally pungent smell. Although similar to propane, it has a double bond which gives it a combustion advantage. This fuel gas is extremely flammable and non-toxic. Propylene is obtained during the refining of gasoline. But it can also be produced by splitting, cracking and reforming hydrocarbon mixtures.

Propylene is an attractive alternative to propane for heating and cutting due to its superior combustion performance.”

OK, “non toxic” and “superior combustion performance” caught my eye. Is this a good choice for a remote canister stove or is there a danger using a propylene mix?

Roger Caffin BPL Member
PostedAug 5, 2015 at 12:43 am

Bit hard finding the combustion products of propylene, but they should not be very different from Propane. It's slightly more volatile than propane.

My guess is that the mix should burn just fine and fairly safely, allowing of course for CO production if there is not enough air and/or exhaust. I say 'guess' because I cannot find any hard data in a brief search. Would I use it under the conditions specified? Yes.

Cheers

Stuart R BPL Member
PostedAug 5, 2015 at 1:06 am

Interesting, I have not seen that before.

Propene (propylene) is similar to propane (just has 2 hydrogen atoms removed resulting in a double bond), with similar (slightly lower) boiling point. It is quite combustible, indeed there will be a tiny amount of propene present in a flame formed when burning pure propane (as the propane molecules are broken up). Also, any canister that contains "butane + propane" will also contain propene (and butene) as an impurity – fuels for combustion are not highly refined (why bother with additional expense?).
http://www.coleman.com/uploadedFiles/Content/Customer_Support/Safety/gaz.pdf

So yeah, I would say quite suitable for remote canister use.

David Thomas BPL Member
PostedAug 5, 2015 at 10:15 am

Light hydrocarbons are all release around 20,000 BTU/pound of fuel when burned. It varies +/- 5% depending mostly on the Hydrocarbon:Carbon ratio. Hydrogen is much lighter than Carbon so propane (C3H8) has more energy per pound than butane (C4H10). Propylene (C3H6) is as low as the Hydrogen:Carbon ratio can go at 1:1 so that is not as good (by 5-10% x whatever its fraction of the mix is).

OTEPOH (on the ever-present other hand), we don't haul around methane, ethane or pure propane for their higher heat contents (due to that higher H:C ratio) because their higher vapor pressures requires a much heavier container (usually, unfortunately, made of steel).

AYOTTH (and yet, on the third hand), a modest percentage of those higher-vapor-pressure gases (usually iso-butane or propane in a backpacking canister) help operation in cold temperatures. Slightly more steel is needed in the container, but the canisters are useable to a lower temperature without invoking quite as many tricks (immersion in warm water, putting a tea candle under the canister, using copper wire or a copper strip to conduct heat from the flame, etc).

I'm intrigued that it is marketed for "brazing" which requires a higher temperature than the more common use of portable torches – soldering. There are several gases (BernzOmatic's MAP* gas, "Flame temperature in air of 3,730° F, ideal for medium to heavy soldering and brazing") that burn hotter than propane ("flame temperature in air of 3,600° F"). I suspect the propylene is in the mix to boost the flame temperature because brazing is at the upper end of what you can do without using an oxygen tank as well.

*Methyacetylene**-Propadiene

Methyacetylene=Propyne and Propadiene are each C3H4 so they are between propane and propylene.

Here's some data on different fuel gas canisters (not BPing canisters, but for torches):

http://www.bernzomatic.com/products/fuel-cylinders/

In general, a higher flame temperature makes for better heat transfer to the pot. That's good. Unless you've got a marginal design like some JetBoil pots whose heat exchanger fins can be damaged by high heat. Also (and this is an advanced concept), when you get into HX pots or melting snow, you get some condensation of water vapor from the flame exhaust and that transfers a fair bit more heat. This loops back to that H:C ratio – more H makes for a lighter fuel and more H makes more water vapor which can release its heat of vaporization back to the pot – something that the CO2 from C never does.

In summary: Seems totally fine as a BPing fuel. If it is better in any way, it is only 5%-ish better, but I suspect the low H:C ratio and the long (less spherical) geometry of the canister outweigh any advantages from higher flame temperature or (possibly) a better vapor pressure. Best guess: 400 grams of this (fuel + container) will boil as much water as 375 grams of any modern BPing canister + fuel. Also, once you move beyond the mass-marketed propane cylinders, I've found the speciality-gas cylinders for brazing to cost a few dollars more each.

Art Simon BPL Member
PostedAug 5, 2015 at 4:24 pm

This is why I subscribe to BPL. Thanks so much for your informed replies. You're confirming my gut feeling (influenced by my desperation to get a functioning stove) that it probably wouldn't produce carcinogenic gases, otherwise it wouldn't be safe for brazing. And if it attached to the stove, it would probably work.

Lesson learned. When in France, search out camping specialist stores before heading out. I was shocked that I only saw the puncture type Bluet cartridges. I didn't know anybody used those anymore.

Stuart R BPL Member
PostedAug 6, 2015 at 12:46 am

When in France, you need a stove that uses a Campingaz CV300 or CV470 canister. That means either a Campingaz stove, or a threaded valve stove plus an Edelrid canister adaptor, or Rogers universal remote canister stove.
Threaded Coleman style canisters are hard to find even in hiking/camping stores, whereas Campingaz canisters are in every supermarket.

Viewing 7 posts - 1 through 7 (of 7 total)
Loading...