Looking to add protein to my backpacking diet

You could include a protein powder. The one I just bought (North Coast Naturals Iso Protein) gives me 24g of protein from 29g of powder mixed with 150 to 250 ml of water. Makes a reasonably tasty vanilla (or chocolate) drink. Efficient to pack. The one I have has whey protein. There are some good plant based options (eg Vega One). I avoid casein (-> constipation).

If you tolerate soy, freeze-dried edamame are worth a look. I'm looking at a packet of Eda-Zen "Cruncha ma me" at the moment: 16g of protein, 4g fat, 90 cal in a 20g serving. You'd want to repackage.

Chicken and fish is sold in pouches that packs pretty well. I don't know about the implications of the fish smell from empty pouches in bear country though.

As long as the pouches are shoved into your garbage bag, and properly kept (in your canister or whatever you do), the empty pouches are no more an issue than any other garbage.

It's only two weeks. For myself, I don't bother worrying about ratios and so forth.

Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills talks about high elevations, its effect on the digestive tract, and suggests increased carbs and fats, and eating protein only on layover days as it's difficult to digest at elevation.

Yeah, you bet I crave burgers after nine days – but I fish, and between that and the dehydrated chili, I do fine.

"Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills talks about high elevations, its effect on the digestive tract, and suggests increased carbs and fats, and eating protein only on layover days as it's difficult to digest at elevation."

Thanks Lori – I did not know this about protein at high elevations.

"Thanks Lori – I did not know this about protein at high elevations."

You have to have protein if you're going to be out any length of time. So, don't eliminate it entirely. Just make sure to minimize your protein intake during the day, while you're on the move, and get most of it with your evening meal, when your system can digest it while you're at rest. An added benefit to this approach is that you can make use of the heat generated by the digestion of protein(thermic effect) to help keep you warm in your sleeping bag.

Edited for clarity.

Try Bob's Red Mill TVP (textured vegetable protein) found in most regular grocery stores in addition to health/whole food stores. I add it to a variety of meals such as my morning oatmeal or Lipton's (Knorr)Pasta Sides for dinner. The package lists 12g protein per 1/4 C serving.

Thanks for the help. I think I will try substituting some vanilla protien mix for nido with my cold granola in the mornings or just have as a drink. I made a few other changes as well and now show an average of:

Total calories per day – 2829
total ounces per day – 22.5oz

Percent of calories from fat – 45%
Percent of calories from protein – 18%
percent of calories from carbs – 37%

I will try and eat most protein in camp in the morning and evening.

How does that look?

You might consider buying your choice of protein powder in a small quantity at first. Give it a trial run before you go to ensure your system is happy with it. Perhaps try a few different ones. Buy quality and check the reviews. Two ingredients I avoid are [edit] creatine (constipation) and carrageenan (GI problems).

"I will try and eat most protein in camp in the morning and evening.

How does that look?"

I think you're in the ball park. From this point on it will be a matter of small adjustments based on feedback and the varying requirements of your trips. Time to get out there and field test your ideas.

A few other things you might consider bringing:

PB2 powdered peanut butter is a good protein source and has lower fat/protein ratio than regular peanut butter. (Peanut is not one of higher quality proteins, so IMO good to combine with other, high quality sources.)

Dry cheeses – I like Trader Joe's Parmesan/Romano blend. Pretty dense, tasty and versatile.

Ova Easy crystalline eggs – Great protein source and can be cooked in variety of ways or added to other things.

Cheers,

Bill S.

PS – IMO, for practical purposes, the elevation effects on protein digestion/time of day stuff has a marginal effect, if any. Eat protein when you want it, when it's convenient, etc., and don't worry about those issues unless you're having some sort of problem.

"PS – IMO, for practical purposes, the elevation effects on protein digestion/time of day stuff has a marginal effect, if any. Eat protein when you want it, when it's convenient, etc., and don't worry about those issues unless you're having some sort of problem."

While you're certainly entitled to your opinion, Bill, and Bradford equally entitled to take it into account, is it just that, an opinion, unsupported as far as I can tell by facts. The facts are that the thermic effect of protein is about twice that of carbohydrates and three plus times that of fat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_dynamic_action

"The thermic effect of food is the energy required for digestion, absorption, and disposal of ingested nutrients. Its magnitude depends on the composition of the food consumed:
•Carbohydrates: 5 to 15% of the energy consumed [6]
•Protein: 20 to 35% [6]
•Fats: at most 5 to 15 %[7]"

This has obvious implications for any activity, including backpacking. The heat generated by the catabolism of protein has to be dissipated by the body's circulation system, and the question becomes when is the better time for that to happen? When you're laboring up a slope to a pass under a blazing sun and already struggling not to overheat, or at night in your sleeping bag, when the warmth can be put to good use helping to heat your bag? A second downside to using protein as a substrate for energy is that it takes the stomach/small intestine longer to break it down. during this process, both organs will compete with the working muscles of the legs for blood supply. Also, protein used for energy is not available for tissue repair, hormone synthesis, etc, which is its primary function. For all these reasons, it is the body's energy source of last resort. While avoiding protein during the day when on the move, may apply less to a typical backpacker than, say, a competitive runner, it is nonetheless something for them to consider, and avoiding it for the most part can only be beneficial.

Some references on how the body's use of protein as an energy substrate follow:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_(nutrient)#Aerobic_exercise_protein_needs

"Endurance athletes who exercise over a long period (2–5 hours per training session) use protein as a source of 5–10% of their total energy expended."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_(nutrient)#Protein_function_in_exercise

"Protein is only used as anaerobic fuel when carbohydrates are low, or as aerobic fuel when lipid resources are also low. [7]"

http://livewell.jillianmichaels.com/proteins-used-last-source-energy-5473.html

"Disadvantages of Amino Acid Catabolism

Amino acid catabolism is the process of using amino acids as an energy source. Turning amino acids into molecules that can be used in the Krebs cycle takes energy, which means that burning protein for fuel is not as efficient as burning carbohydrates. In addition, your body needs amino acids to make new proteins. When amino acids are used as an energy source, it reduces the reserves of amino acids that are available for protein synthesis.

Amino Acids and Ammonia

Another disadvantage of using protein as an energy source is the byproducts of amino acid catabolism. All amino acids contain nitrogen atoms. When these amino acids are broken down, the nitrogen is converted into ammonia. Ammonia can be toxic when it accumulates in your blood, so your body has to excrete the ammonia through your urine. Although your kidneys can excrete moderate amounts of ammonia, if you break down too many amino acids, the increased ammonia excretion can stress your kidneys."

These are just to get Bradford, or anyone else interested in the subject, started.

For further information sources, use Google with the search arguments "thermic effect of protein" and "protein as an energy source". You will come up with more references than you will ever need to satisfy yourself as to where protein fits into your backpacking diet.

I add unflavored whey protein powder to my freezer bag cooked meals. It has a minimal effect on flavor and thickens the food only slightly so I don’t add more water. The trick—whey powder clumps when added to very hot liquids—is to add it after the meal has cooled enough. For me, that’s when I can eat with gusto rather than caution.

Vanilla and chocolate always taste like artificial sweeteners. Yuck!

Jarrow is one of the cheapest and it’s what I’ve been using with good success. NOW makes an organic one and is worth buying in the larger quantities.

Wrt to concerns about the thermogenic effect of protein, let's try making a few thumbnail calculations and see what kind of an impact we might expect from the differential thermal effect of various macronutrients. Assuming that I go ahead and have a 500 calorie snack/meal with 20% calories from protein even though I'm about to do a tough climb of 2 hours (not necessarily a great idea), and that I'll digest it fully during that time period and use all the protein for energy (I won't, but let's allow this to get an upper bound on the effect), about 15-20 extra calories from that protein might go to heat (relative to what it would be for carbohydrate). During that 2 hours, let's assume I'll burn 1000 calories climbing (IMO, a conservative estimate), of which the vast majority (let's say 750-800 for thumbnail purposes) will wind up as heat. So the difference in overall heat production as a result of eating a fairly protein-rich meal before my climb would be on the order of a few %. If that few % is what pushes me over the edge, then it matters, and that's what I mean when I say that it may have a marginal effect. In practice, if I'm over my limit, I'll slow down by 2%, or find some other way to cool off, and relative to the other things that affect my well-being on any given day, that few % will almost always disappear into the noise.

What if we look empirically at people who are making their living right at the margin? Over much of the past 10-15 years, it's been the general thinking that getting protein as well as carbs (usually in a 4:1 or 3:1 ratio of carbohydrates to protein over most of that time period, if I'm recalling correctly) during endurance racing is beneficial. My interpretation of more recent studies is that the benefit is not so clear, but I'm not aware of any studies that showed that the protein impaired performance – even among people for whom a few % performance difference would be expected to show up. Maybe the studies weren't set up right to detect a thermogenic impact, but IMO it'd be hard to find support that there's likely to be more than a marginal effect.

As I suggested, if you're having a problem with eating protein during the day, by all means make the appropriate adjustments, but otherwise, I just can't see that the theoretical or empirical evidence supports the position that it's generally problematic to include protein in meals during the day while backpacking. To my knowledge, it's never been tested properly, but there could even be some physiological (as well as gastronomic) benefits. If you're on the trail for 10-14 hours/day, might it not potentially be beneficial to be supplying some protein to the muscles during the day? Is recovery something that can only happen at night? Does it potentially spare muscle to replace on the go some of the 10% or so of calories that are typically drawn from protein during endurance exercise?

Cheers,

Bill S.

"If you're on the trail for 10-14 hours/day, might it not potentially be beneficial to be supplying some protein to the muscles during the day?

Does it potentially spare muscle to replace on the go some of the 10% or so of calories that are typically drawn from protein during endurance exercise?"

Of course, which is where the 5-10% protein that the body normally uses comes into play. It is a means of sparing muscle protein from being catabolized. So why not go with what the body has evolved to do, which is use protein as a fall back source of energy, and limit your dietary protein during the day to 5-10% for muscle protein sparing and a bit of energy, reserving the rest for when it will be used most efficiently, for tissue repair, hormone synthesis, etc., and reap the additional benefit of generating some extra heat for your sleeping bag in the bargain? It is not by accident that most "performance drinks" keep the protein to a minimum, with this in mind.

"Is recovery something that can only happen at night?"

The following part of my reply is hereby retracted, as I do not have the time to go back and dig up the references at this time. I am not deleting it because I do not want to disrupt the flow of the thread.

RETRACTED -You may spare muscle protein during whatever time of day you are exercising, but for all practical purposes recovery from damage incurred by exercise will happen only when there is an extended period of inactivity. -END RETRACTION

"So the difference in overall heat production as a result of eating a fairly protein-rich meal before my climb would be on the order of a few %. If that few % is what pushes me over the edge, then it matters"

This is something that is very difficult to ascertain in advance, so why take the chance? Why not just do all you can in advance to avoid that possibility by structuring your diet to minimize the amount of energy wasted in catabolizing substrates, i.e. derive your energy mostly from stored glycogen, dietary carbs, and body fat while on the move? If you are on the move for extended period, add dietary fat to the mix.

I am glad you quantified your point of view, though, Bill. I'm thinking that Bradford now has ample grist for his mill, so I'm pretty much done. Always a pleasure discussing stuff like this with you.

Cheers

Tom

"You may spare muscle protein during whatever time of day you are exercising, but for all practical purposes recovery from damage incurred by exercise will happen only when there is an extended period of inactivity."

Tom, do you have references for that? It seems an important point, both wrt how readily one can recover overnight from 14 hour days or more, and also wrt the key questions being asked by van Loon in the most complete review I've been able to find on the subject (van Loon, Sports Med. 2014; 44(Suppl 1): 105–111).

Best,

Bill

"Tom, do you have references for that? It seems an important point, both wrt how readily one can recover overnight from 14 hour days or more, and also wrt the key questions being asked by van Loon in the most complete review I've been able to find on the subject (van Loon, Sports Med. 2014; 44(Suppl 1): 105–111)."

Hi Bill,

It's buried somewhere in:

Exercise Physiology: Nutrition, Energy, and Human Performance Seventh, International Edition Edition

by William D. McArdle (Author),Frank I. Katch (Author), Victor L. Katch (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/Exercise-Physiology-Nutrition-Energy-Performance/dp/1608318591

But for the life of me I just don't have the time, energy, or motivation to get into it again, with all the re-reading I'd have to do to give you the specific reference(s). We chewed this one to death in another thread last year sometime, and I'm inclined to let it go at that. I'm off on a trip in two days, have oral surgery when I get back, and after that will be getting ready for another trip. So, with that I will edit out the statement in my previous post and beat an ignominious retreat. I guess it just doesn't matter to me that much anymore, as I am certain enough of it based on what I have read and from my own experience as a competitive distance runner and backpacker to structure my own training and diet based on that principle. I will say that by "an extended period of inactivity" I meant at least overnight for damaged incurred in the previous day's exercise, but that is bound to vary widely with the individual and the exercise performed. In many cases it will very likely be more than overnight, and if the exercise continues over many days, there will likely be a gradual decline in function due to cumulative unrepaired damage. If you want to get some really solid information from a real expert, I'd suggest you PM Shawn Bearden. He has a PhD in exercise physiology and is himself an endurance runner. Another good source would be Jennifer Mitol. She has a PhD in physical therapy, and works closely with another PhD in, I believe, exercise physiology. The regimen he prescribed for her on her hike of the CDT was apparently highly successful, so it would appear her guy definitely knows what he is talking about. That is the best I can do for now.

Best regards,

Tom

I have long known I don't feel good if I consume heavy amounts of protein during the day, while hiking. I'll eat a light amount of it in the morning – to fuel up – and a bit at lunch. I save most for dinner. It's pretty gross hiking right after a protein heavy lunch, with digestion going on.

Just my 2 cents…..

Thanks for your reply, Tom, and for directing me to McArdle et al. I'll see what they and their references have to say and will post if I find something that makes it clearer whether recovery/repair synthesis can continue during subsequent exercise.

Also, as I was thinking more about your questions wrt counterbalancing the use of protein as an energy source (which becomes increasingly important as glycogen is depleted during endurance exercise), it occurred to me that it may be worth noting that the proportion of energy coming from protein is relative to energy utilization, not dietary consumption. Therefore, if half of one's calories are coming from body fat, for instance, the dietary proportion of protein needed to offset the utilization of protein as fuel would be double the proportion needed in the absence of caloric deficit.

I hope your trips and oral surgery go well.

All the best,

Bill

" if I find something that makes it clearer whether recovery/repair synthesis can continue during subsequent exercise."

In my understanding, it is not so much whether it can go on, because it will, but rather will it be enough to keep up with the damage incurred by extended exercise. Again, my understanding is that it will not keep up, and that eventually a period of inactivity will be necessary for complete recovery, at least overnight, and in many cases, longer. I structure my carried food based in part on that understanding, in that I allocate a little over 50% of my protein intake to dinner, a little over 30% to breakfast, and a little less than 20% to my energy drink mix for use during the day.

"Also, as I was thinking more about your questions wrt counterbalancing the use of protein as an energy source (which becomes increasingly important as glycogen is depleted during endurance exercise), it occurred to me that it may be worth noting that the proportion of energy coming from protein is relative to energy utilization, not dietary consumption. Therefore, if half of one's calories are coming from body fat, for instance, the dietary proportion of protein needed to offset the utilization of protein as fuel would be double the proportion needed in the absence of caloric" deficit."

I would refer you to the link below for a discussion of where some of the protein the body uses for energy comes from. The body has evolved recycling mechanisms to make use of the byproducts of damaged muscle cells to produce glucose. The discussion refers in passing to the fact that the use of protein for energy is less efficient, in that it requires more energy, and hence generates more heat, to convert the amino acids to glucose.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahill_cycle

It is very much the same for dietary protein, and it is for this reason that I choose to emphasize carbs in my carried food. Roughly 50% of my dietary calories are derived from carbs. The body will prefer carbs over protein if they are available, and I try to make sure that they are. Additional reasons for providing ample carbs I have mentioned in previous post, to include conserving the heat generated by protein catabolism for my sleeping bag and decreasing the heat my body has to dissipate while on the move, avoidance of involving the stomach/small intestine to digest dietary protein, which will compete with the working muscles involved in locomotion for blood supply, reducing the load on the liver and kidneys to convert the ammonia to urea and eliminate it thru the kidneys, sparing muscle glycogen as much as possible, conserving dietary protein for tissue repair, and decreasing the time it takes to get the dietary sourced glucose where it will do some good. There simply is no quicker way to provide energy to the muscles than carbs. That said, ideally the carbs will be used not only to supply quick energy needed for intense bursts of activity, but also to support the optimal catabolism of fat for an efficient long lasting source of energy at normal levels of exercise. I structure my carried food based in part on this set of principles as I understand them, in that I allocate a little over 50% of my protein intake to dinner, a little over 30% to breakfast, and a little less than 20% to my energy drink mix for use during the day, and have been able to consistently do trips up to 9 days on a little over 18 oz. of food/day: 300 grams of carbs; 70 grams of protein; 90 grams of fat; 25 or so grams of fiber; calories around 2300. These are approximations, but close to the mark. The remaining 1700 or so calories I seem to use, year in and year out come from body fat. I lose about 1/2 pound/day. If my understanding is correct, the majority of the 70 grams of dietary protein will go to muscle repair during the night(so far I do not seem to degrade over the course of my trips), and provide a small increase in warmth while I'm in the bag at night.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahill_cycle

When I pointed you to Shawn B. and Jennifer M. yesterday, I neglected probably the most knowledgeable and experienced BPL source of practical information on this subject, Greg Gressel. He operates at a much higher level of intensity over far longer distances than I, to the extent that dietary sources of carbs, protein, and fats become critical, as his stored supplies will be exhausted in a relatively short period of time. From reading his posts on the subject I have learned quite a bit and, since your hiking style as I understand it from your posts more closely resembles his than my own, I would strongly recommend you chat him up on the subject. I can't think of a better source of real world information on what and doesn't work as you start to push the envelope.

All of this said, I will look forward to hearing about what you come up with, as my approach to my backpacking food is very much "kaizen".

Thanks for the kind thoughts, Bill, and I'll look forward to reading your posts whenever you get around to it.

Tom

Hi, I mentioned this a couple years ago but the best and lightest backpacking protein is desiccated liver. I get it from Beverly Ultra 40 which you can get for the best price I have found from Bodybuilding.com. They are horse pills but each one contains 2 grams of protein from grass fed Argentine beef. Typically 40 per day or more for me but that would depend on your size. Corn fed American beef would be depleted of the minerals available in grass fed beef liver.
You have to feed your leg muscles when putting in miles particularly if you are in the mountains. Otherwise your body will pull protein from your other muscles and your brain.
For breakfasts I put a cup of oatmeal in the blender and turn it to flour then mix in two scoops of protein powder and put the portion in a ziplock. Mix with cold water on the trail and drink, no fuel required except for the coffee. I am a nutritionist by trade and here is one of my clients after 9 months.

Really? The same woman? I'm not only impressed but truly amazed.

And all by using these pills as a supplement?

Eric,

He didn't say which was before and which was after ;)

Dave