Jan 15, 2019 at 5:45 pm #3573231PedestrianBPL Member
plus a magnesium and potassium supplement
You probably already know this but be VERY careful with potassium! Your body will do fine with a bit of excess magnesium or sodium but excess potassium can be extremely dangerous.
If you have symptoms of hyperkalemia, particularly if you have kidney disease or are taking medications that raise your potassium level, call your doctor immediately. Hyperkalemia is a serious and potentially life-threatening disorder. It can cause:
Jan 17, 2019 at 9:58 pm #3573567HkNewmanBPL Member
Abnormal heart rhythms (arrhythmias)
@hknewmanLocale: Western US
Late to this (sardines and water) party, but what’s been the province of trainers and dieticians now attracts medical doctors and even evolutionary biologists like a Neanderthal to a grilling bratwurst. So there’s still debates summarized on NatGeo ..
Behind it all, basically fats (lipids) contain more calories than carbohydrates or proteins per gram. The body needs to run on carbs (to make a molecule called ATP <=> ADP + P, which runs muscles, nerves, etc… in various ways to put it very simply) but can convert (via hydrolysis) fats to do this as well. One way to look at all this carb-avoidance stuff is a faster way to “burn” fat calories. That’s the basic biochemistry behind the physiology which is proven. Again “why” is still up for debate, though there’s a nice link in Chaff showing pre-history humans exercised more than modern humans (of course they were hunting for their next meal which was less than 50% successful, vs “hunting” at the grocery by walking 40 feet from a vehicle).Jan 17, 2019 at 11:55 pm #3573592Greg MihalikBPL Member
Nice job Doug –
It sounds like it’s working for you. Down 25# and feeling good is quite an accomplishment. As is making a major life change and sticking to it.
I’m looking forward to the progress reports.
Take Care.Jul 25, 2019 at 4:36 pm #3603406Erik HBPL Member
Just returned from a 3 day backpacking trip in Alaska. I did very low carb for the first time in the backcountry and was very pleased with the result. My diet was driven almost exclusively by pistachios, almonds, summer sausage, and Parmesan cheese. I did have trail mix with a lot of dried fruit in case I needed some sugar. I couldn’t be happier with the results but it exposes a major issues I hadn’t considered. Weight. All these foods are calorically dense but they are really really heavy. I’m 215lbs to begin with so if I am going to attempt to keep my caloric deficit somewhat reasonable, I’ll have to carry a small volume of food….but the weight of that food is much higher than I’d hoped.
Any suggestions? Is this just a trade off? IJul 25, 2019 at 6:11 pm #3603423
Next Mile Meals makes very tasty freeze-dried meals, that helps a bit. But yes, it’s a bit of a tradeoff.Jul 25, 2019 at 6:21 pm #3603429Steve CollinsBPL Member
@chicagomooseLocale: The Windy City
+1 for Next Mile Meals. Heather’s Choice also has a couple options that are lower in net carbs but not Keto specific like Next Mile.Jul 25, 2019 at 9:56 pm #3603461Erik HBPL Member
Thanks!Jul 25, 2019 at 10:02 pm #3603462
Packit Gourmet also has a couple of keto-friendly meals which are good, though I prefer the Next Mile Meals (no relationship with either company).
I also get a .5oz packets of ghee at my local grocery store (Safeway) and add one to each hot meal, which adds an additional 130 cal. and 15 g. fat, no carbs.Nov 8, 2019 at 12:28 am #3617700Brad WBPL Member
@me of course-What do those ghee packets cost? The ones I found were expensive-$2.50/each or more. I have been taking grass fed butter in a 2oz nalgene container and it works out well.Dec 6, 2019 at 8:26 pm #3621798
Eat base on activity.Dec 6, 2019 at 9:11 pm #3621810
@rocko99: I’ll have to look the next time I’m in Safeway – I generally don’t pay a lot of attention to prices so I’m never sure what any single thing costs.Dec 6, 2019 at 10:32 pm #3621825PedestrianBPL Member
I generally don’t pay a lot of attention to prices
I, on the other hand, do pay attention to prices and my suggestion would be to pick up a small jar or ghee at Trader Joe’s or at any Indian grocery store; carry what you need for a trip in a small plastic Nalgene jar from REI etc. Much better than carrying the silly overpriced single serve packets.
I do the same for olive and coconut oils if I carry those. Usually ghee serves me as a universal fat on backpacking trips and I exclusively use it for everything.
Ghee is an excellent cooking fat (unless you don’t like the flavor) that is shelf stable at room temperature for several months at a time and also has a high smoke point.
Ghee is just butter with all the milk solids and moisture separated from it by heating butter to a high enough temperature and filtering out the residue. I know people that make ghee in the microwave at home from a couple sticks or more of butter.Dec 7, 2019 at 3:46 am #3621895
@rocko99: They don’t seem to carry the ghee packets any more, sorry.Dec 7, 2019 at 4:52 pm #3621968W I S N E R !BPL Member
I think it was a Next Mile Italian Meatball dinner you had me try up at Sawmill lake. Holy crap, it was tasty. $14 a dinner is a bit painful for me (I’m a cheapskate meal planner)….I’m going to see if I can reverse engineer it in my dehydrator.Dec 7, 2019 at 6:01 pm #3621972
“I’m 215lbs to begin with so if I am going to attempt to keep my caloric deficit somewhat reasonable, I’ll have to carry a small volume of food….but the weight of that food is much higher than I’d hoped.”
Unless you are a very lean 215#, you are carrying a nearly unlimited, calorie dense source of energy in the form of stored body fat. It is immediately available and requires no digestion. All you need to utilize it efficiently is a carb source. You could probably get by on 20 oz of carried food/day, primarily carbs, with a few ounces allocated to protein. I have found this approach to be a great way to shave a few pounds off my carried weight after fine tuning my gear.Dec 9, 2019 at 5:09 pm #3622137JacobBPL Member
“All you need to utilize [stored body fat] efficiently is a carb source”
What do you mean?
If you are hiking in a caloric deficiency your body will use stored energy, regardless of diet (macro nutrient ratios)
If you eat carbs your blood sugar rises leading to your cells taking in that sugar where it gets used preferentially according to oxidative priority for energy vs ketones from stored fat.
So eating carbs prevents the body from utilizing stored fats, on a basic level (real bodies in real life are complicated not basic…)
Assuming pure macro nutrients for a simple over-estimation: 3x 3oz serving of protein a day (~1000 cal) leaves 11oz of carbs a day (~1250 cal) for a total of about 2250 cal/day of carbs and protein. A large man hiking all day would probably need more than 2250cal/day , but since all 2250 cal/day are burned before stored body fat, they would be minimizing the use of stored energy while in caloric deficit. Is that what you mean by efficient use?
Fats have more calories per gram than carbs or protein. So if you are packing the same number of calories, (the same amount of energy in food) then a low carb diet should weigh less not more.Dec 10, 2019 at 1:45 am #3622200MJ HBPL Member
Is there something I’m missing about the alcohol column? You can obviously store several hundred calories worth of alcohol in your blood for a period of hours. If you couldn’t drunk driving wouldn’t be much of a problem.Dec 10, 2019 at 4:56 am #3622224
“What do you mean?”
Exactly what I said.
“If you are hiking in a caloric deficiency your body will use stored energy, regardless of diet (macro nutrient ratios)”
Of course, but it is a question of how efficiently.
“If you eat carbs your blood sugar rises leading to your cells taking in that sugar where it gets used preferentially according to oxidative priority for energy vs ketones from stored fat.”
You need to do a little reading on how the 3 macro energy sources are metabolized in varying ratios according to the intensity of exercise, cardiovascular fitness of the individual, and altitude. It is usually determined by a VO2 max test, which will give the percentages of carbs and fat at varying levels of exercise intensity. Look up respiration exchange ratio and/or respiratory quotient for starters and go from there. The macro sources are not used sequentially, with all carbs being exhausted before fat metabolism begins. And protein comes into the equation minimally until carbs and fat have been exhausted. That is because proteins are not an efficient source of energy. They are complex molecules that require a lot of action and energy to break down and are used primarily for tissue repair.
“Assuming pure macro nutrients for a simple over-estimation: 3x 3oz serving of protein a day (~1000 cal) leaves 11oz of carbs a day (~1250 cal) for a total of about 2250 cal/day of carbs and protein. A large man hiking all day would probably need more than 2250cal/day , but since all 2250 cal/day are burned before stored body fat, they would be minimizing the use of stored energy while in caloric deficit.”
The metabolism of stored energy, both glycogen and fat proceeds concurrently with dietary sources, and protein, both dietary and stored in the form of muscle tissue, does not figure significantly in the process. Degraded muscle cell proteins in the form of the carbon skeletons of amino acids are recycled through the liver to produce glycogen, but it is not a significant source of energy under normal conditions.
“Is that what you mean by efficient use?”
There is an axiom in exercise that “fat burns in a carbohydrate flame”. It is a bit complicated to explain in a reasonably short BPL post. I will refer you to “the Krebs Cycle”. In a few words, fat is metabolized efficiently when it proceeds in the presence of a certain percentage of carbs, which varies with the level of exertion and cardiovascular fitness that delivers oxygen to support the process. Altitude also affects the process. At higher altitudes, where there is less oxygen, carbs will be increasingly preferred because they require less external oxygen to be metabolized than fats. In either case, the less oxygen available, the more carbs will be utilized, and vice versa. It is how we evolved, and with good reason. Glucose is the preferred energy source for the brain, and also for quick bursts of energy in fight or flight situations. Fat will always be preferred as the primary source of energy if there is adequate oxygen to metabolize it, simply because it provides the most calories per gram and is basically an unlimited source under normal conditions.Dec 10, 2019 at 8:36 am #3622233Roger CaffinModerator
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
I like my cheese and my salami. Good stuff.
But above 5,000 m I could not handle fats much at all.
CheersDec 10, 2019 at 3:01 pm #3622243
Roger, I always take Diamox to speed up my acclimation. However, it completely destroys my appetite for about two days. I also find if I’m doing a lot of elevation gain that my digestive system doesn’t like to process animal based proteins.
The Army does have a mountain research facility that puts out good guides for operating at higher altitudes. It’s really good.Dec 10, 2019 at 9:22 pm #3622282Roger CaffinModerator
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
We have never taken Diamox. Up to a bit over 2,000 m we have zero problems, but we have spent a lot of time at those heights. Some puffing at 3,000 m, so we control our exercise rates, but no problems. Some puffing above 5,000 m: slowed down a bit.
The PDFs at the URL you gave have a ton of good info in them. I am still reading some of them. Thanks.
CheersDec 10, 2019 at 10:03 pm #3622288
Lots of good info at that site. It might be military focused, but I see a ton of overlap with backpacking.
Other parts of the site will give you more recent studies, so it’s worth exploring.Dec 11, 2019 at 12:11 am #3622311obx hikerBPL Member
@obxcolaLocale: Outer Banks of North Carolina
Ditto on the thanks Brian. Very useful link!Dec 11, 2019 at 10:50 pm #3622436
“But above 5,000 m I could not handle fats much at all.”
For very good reason. The higher one ascends, the more carbs will be the preferred energy substrate, due to the decreased availability of O2. Of course, that has implications for how long one can safely remain at high altitude. Man lives not by carbs alone. ;0)
CheersDec 17, 2019 at 3:50 pm #3623193TOU-47BPL Member
Some great stuff here. As noted on the “Intermittent Fasting” thread I have had great success on & off the trail with Ultra Low Carb (Keto) & IF. It works well for me, with so many benefits. After nearly 2 years of adopting this lifestyle, (not a diet) I don’t see any reason to ever go back to my carboholic lifestyle of carb crashing. Granted I’m not a thru hiker.
I live at 5300′ elevation & have BP’ed at 10-12k. Planning trips to three13,500 summits this summer. I’ve had no issues at altitude so far & will stick with it during these trips.
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