Alcohol Stove with shut off valve

It depends on both the wording and intent of the ban. Words dont always clearly and unambiguously convey the desired intent. Unfortunately, sometimes you can also ask 3 different rangers and get 3 different answers.

Being unaware of the details of things like alcohol and esbit, what they really do is attempt to describe a feature of commercial cannister or liquid fuel stoves, to prevent homemade or crudely produced and lesser reliable items. I would not attempt to circumvent on weasel-words, even if a ranger said OK.

You can get a cannister stove that weighs 0.9 oz. There isnt much reason to whine, even if a regulation is arbitrary.

At least in a previous ban in Colorado, one county specifically said stoves must be UL certified:

"Mechanical stoves and appliances fueled by bottled or liquid gas which allow the operator to control and extinguish the flame with a valve are permitted provided that such devices are approved by Underwriters Laboratory Inc”

As asked before, is this particular contraption UL certified?

Also, how much does it weigh? If the make shift valve adds a considerable amount of weight (say an oz) to the stove, not sure what is gained.

^^ what, there's now a certification process for being UltraLight?! :P

That's pretty cool. But probably not. I posted this list before. It's a collection of wording from fire bans that mention stoves. Not all do. Some just say no open fires. The governor of Colorado ignored my offer to be the backpacking stove fire ban czar where I would have standardized the wording. Oh well.

Stove must have an on/off switch. (I've never seen an on/off switch on a stove. They seem to mean a valve not a switch.)
Stoves that use LNG fuel. (No white gas? What about Isobutane?)
Stoves that use liquid fuel. (They don't mean alky stoves although it sounds like they should.)
Stoves that are (Ul or fire) underwriter approved.
Stoves that use petroleum fuel. (What if it was a homemade and didn't have an off switch?)

In talking to the local forestry guys in Southern Cal, the fuel must be pressurized with a shut off, or be in gel form like Sterno so that it can't flow. Most are still not sure exactly why Esbit is banned when the properties are explained to them, only that it is.

Are there any alcohol stoves that are UL approved?

The Trangia contraption pictured above becomes pressurized and uses liquid alcohol that turns into a gas. Have not a clue if it is UL approved. It does have a shut of valve…just for the fun of it, call it a switch :)

Weight of the Trangia is of no concern at this point. Just want to know if the mechanism would be considered a shut off valve.

The fact that it needs to be UL approved/certified is something relatively new to me via Mags.

Why alcohol or esbit stoves? Are they quiet?

If you want to hear a woodpecker peckering or an otter ottering or a loon looning or a tree squeeking then you might want to try Shugs's goto alcohol stove. He's tried them all and has settled in on just one:

> provided that such devices are approved by Underwriters Laboratory Inc

Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a single backpacking stove that has ever been NEAR an Underwriters Laboratory! Unless a Lab tech was headed out the door to go camping.
I suspect they have been smoking illegal substances.

On/Off switches – yeah, you have to chuckle. I think the Sierra wood stove has a switch though …

chers

I can't think of any stoves with UL designation either.

THat's why there is Google.

Here's one applicble example for canisters. Took me all of a minute to find.

http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/scopes/scopes.asp?fn=0147a.html

In particular, it is referring to this ANSI standard in the doc I just linked:
e) Portable Type Gas Camp Stoves, ANSI Z21.72-2000.

And with five minutes of Googling: https://www.cpsc.gov//PageFiles/103082/cooking.pdf

"“Portable Type Gas Camp Stoves” appear to be the most relevant standards published…"

Meaning, standards enough to put in a government doc. :)

I suspect if it was the state of Colorado put it in their restrictions, there are other applicable scopes and ANSI standards as well.

But, you get the idea.

We can nitpick, use weasel words (thanks M B!) etc. But is obvious agencies are distrusting homemade/cottage made equipment that are not done under a set standard. Is that fair? Dunno. But expect more of it in our increasingly fire prone West.

But I'd rather not risk a fine just to show how I can find loopholes and show what a smart fella I am.

More importantly, I think it is wrong to encourage others to weasel out of things when we have a lot of people who read our stuff for better or worse. Frankly, I think it is irresponsible.

I think the Sierra wood stove has a switch though …

Indeed it does as does the Biolite. But other than fan assisted wood stoves, no.

With regard to ESBIT, many people classify it in the same category as a candle (since it can be blown out by mouth) and therefore permissible to use even in areas where a valve is required. It certainly can’t spill.

ESBIT is the safest fuel I can think of, certainly safer than white gas, canister gas, or alcohol. I suppose some could argue the point with respect to kerosene, but personally I’d say ESBIT is the safer. A lot of rangers I’ve spoken to, if they even know what ESBIT is, say that they wouldn’t hassle someone using ESBIT. Sequoia, Kings Canyon, and Yosemite National Parks have even gone so far as to explicitly state that tablet stoves are permitted even in times of high fire danger. It certainly wouldn’t trouble my conscience to use it if in my judgement any stove were safe to use.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving
Hikin’ Jim’s Blog

Mags, after all your googling, did you find any alcohol stoves that were UL approved?

Roger, would you consider the Trangia stove pictured above, to have a simple “single flanged slide gate" valve?

https://www.google.com/search?q=single+flanged+slide+gate+valve&biw=1366&bih=624&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=CreEVY6iI4apyASl-oLQCg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg

Hi Dan

Can I take the Fifth?

I think the real problem with alky stoves is a combination of novices and spilt alcohol. And it's a real problem. Sure, felt liners to hold the alcohol help, but not during refilling.

Cheers

I find it interesting that this becomes such an issue every year. I was happy to think that I was part of Yosemite's and the various JMT agencies to actually be more explicit in their wording of stoves – I literally hammered them all with calls and emails last year and lo and behold…there came the clarifications. I'd like to think I'm kind of a big deal, you know….. (wink….)

What was interesting is that when I described the starlyte stove and the caldera cone design, each of the agencies I spoke with said that that particular set up was EXACTLY what they'd hoped everyone would use.

But I agree – it's just so easy to use a canister stove, and we now have such ridiculously light options that there's no reason to try to be Mr Smarty Pants (as much as I really, really like to be a smarty pants…). Granted, I really dislike having to deal with the actual canisters themselves (how much is left in here??? what do i do with this partially empty/full thing that may or may not get me to my next resupply?), but oh well. I can boil my water that much faster……

Jennifer, thank you for your efforts and success. It was worthwhile. I showed the StarLyteXL to a park ranger in the Sequoia National Park when I was there is late April. He like it so much he gave me directions to the park office where the “fire” people were so they could see it. I gave it to one the employees so they could do a show and tell at their next gathering of heads. Hope they brainstorm the concept and maybe in the future something will come of it.

Ok, Roger wants to take the Fifth :) We can understand why.

No doubt in my mine the Trangia has a slide valve ;) and that’s not a weasel word LOL.

Look at the slide valves on the two burners in the photo. Just put a can of jelled alcohol in them and you’re good to go.

> Just put a can of jelled alcohol in them and you're good to go.
Yeah, well, that would not spill. A good idea for small boy scouts and large idiots maybe.
(That is NOT a criticism, just a reflection on some teenage males.)

Cheers

Roger, I look at those burners with Titanium eyes :) I'm just having fun….thinking like a stovie/stover a hobby hard to withdraw from.

Roger, are your winter stoves UL approved? (Ultra Light :)

The Trangia was used by the Swiss Military back in the day…. If it's good enough for the countries military, I would venture to say it would be UL approved. I would venture to say even Italy would approve of it's design :)

" I would venture to say even Italy would approve of it's design :)"

You know, it is bad enough you make comments on my website, bad enough you make comments disparaging my honesty in public forums, now you have to make not-so-thinly veiled comments about my ethnicity too?

Really Dan?

Here is what PaulMags said over on white blaze referring to ethnicity:

quote
I have a very sarcastic, blunt and non-too-gentle sense of humor. For the more gentle people who tend to frequent the hiking circles, does not always work. I grew up working class Catholic in an ethnic family in the northeast. With those stereotypes working against me..it is amazing I am not even more coarse.

You can read the entire thread he created over at whiteblaze:

http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/111903-Alcohol-solid-fuel-and-wood-stoves-banned-in-Rocky-Mtn-National-Park

Paul, I think you should give it a rest and if you don't understand that then try using the grey matter between your ears. ;)

I can understand you might be a little grouchy or perhaps have sand in your boxers :) (sound familiar)

And no, I have no investment in the Trangia :)

And no, I don't think some canister stoves out there are UL approved.

Mags, give it a rest ;)

You website is open to the public. If you can't take constructive, negative criticism close the site. Sorry Mags, I grew up in an ethnic area on the south side of Chicago. You wanna go there???? ;)

Mags, give it a rest :)

Edited to say: good thing you edited out your lastcomment :)

Really Dan?

Honest criticism from you to me?:

"Could it be you were in violation and then had a change of heart to “reconsider” ?

Nuff said.

You lack integrity. Are dishonest. And, in a private email sent to me, apparently have a record of telling "political, religious and ethnic jokes." jokes in public forums to attack a person.

Now, I will give it a rest.

If ESBIT stoves WITH a containment tray for the tablet(s) were demonstrated to be safe I think could be allowed. A Brian Green type tray would be one such solution.

Or just a simple circular metal lid big enough for the tablets with at least a 1/8" high containment lip. Perhaps 1/4" high containment lip would be better in placating official fears.

It's the resulting flammable fluid given off of ESBIT tablets during combustion that is the problem. It could run onto the forest floor duff and ignite.

Please take your macho pissing match elsewhere, (like private) we really do not need it here. Feel free to step outside and have at it, but please do not disturb the paying customers. Both of your comments add nothing positive, and in fact detract from the discussions here.

Eric, you're right about esbit needing containment. It would be nice to get esbit approved. As said before, operator error is what needs to be addressed. Emphasis used to be on folks who smoked cigarettes. I would imagine more fires are started by smokers. than stoves.

I made these in the no-spill design of the Starlyte. The simmer/shut off valves are permanently integrated into the burners. Next week I’ll be teaching the Boy Scouts how to use them. Let the fun begin  The scouts won’t ask how much each weighs 

Trangia simmer burner mod? Nice!

The biggest danger i can see for ESBIT is liquid run-off from the Trail Designs tablet holder.

Just buy a BEGT tab holder from Dan Y. and, with a 6″ aluminum base sheet you should be fine. The BEGT holder retains the fuel residue for much longer burning and no run-off.

Want a “shut off “valve? Make an aluminum cap to cover the BEGT and tablet to snuff out the flame. (Hmmm, think I’ll make one so it can also carry the BEGT holder and even left-over tablets that have not thoroughly burned.)