Advice for a 45L/2800 ci backpack – packload never above 26 lbs/12kg

W
So many pack makers seem to misrepresent their pack volumes so much ,that I tend ignore pockets and focus on the actual pack body measurements.

Given MLDs stated dimensions of their pack bodies,both the Prophet and the Exodus should actually be big enough. They are 32" tall including the extension collar.. Max height with.the top rilled securely is about 28" They are plenty big. Especially the Exodus.

The Prophet is certainly is as roomy as an OHM 2.0, Which is a superb second choice for Sven's needs at 1.5 lbs stripped to just the pack body and hipbelt.

That would be OK, but an extension is only for occasional use and should not be taken to get to the regular volume.

You stated he specifically wanted a pack from a US cottage manufacturer. That, my friend, is not true. He said COTTAGE was OKAY. Laufbursche would fit that. And it's available from the EU.

But anyway, I'm just poking fun. I didn't mean any of it as insult. I'm a newbie to the forums anyway so I shouldn't be doing that anyway.

But I must say, you seem to have a STRONG bias for MLD. Does Ron pay you? ;) BTW, I think an Exodus FS would actually be a good pack for him to check out as well.

Sam,

My "MLD bias" is really only in regards to Sven's stated preferrences in this instance.

The internal pad frame and weight Sven mentioned are why I recommended the MLDs. At one pound ,using a pad frame. the Prophet and the Exodus are ideal for his needs. I truly believe that. Despite what W from Europe thinks, that are not small packs.

And I have NO relationshup with MLD at all.. And if I did, I would be honest enough.to state it here ..:)

If he required a rigid frame then a Zpacks 45 Arc Blast would have been my choice.

If he wanted a heavier framed 1.5 to 2 pound pack, I would have recommended an Arc Haul, OHM 2.0 or EH Kalais . All light, well built US MADE packs that can comfortably haul 25 lbs..

Oh, I do not think they are small. I only think I know better what Sven means because we have the same nationality.
And BTW, Woubeir abbreviates to WB. :-)

Jimmer, I hear you loud and clear.

I don't care where my pack is made, as long as it does everything I need it to do. I understand a lot of the "obsession" (I know it's not really an obsession) with USA made gear, but man, it gets absolutely wild sometimes.

Anyway, a Laufbursche huckePACKchen would fit his criteria just as well as the MLD. And, he may be able to get it quicker than an MLD.

Honestly, I want a Wasabi Burn or Newt with pockets more than anything else right now. That would be sweeet.

Sorry for the thread derailment Sven. But check out Laufbursche as an option for products from your side of the pond.

I do like the recommendations for zPacks zero 45L, Arc Blast, Laufbursche Huckepack, MLD Exodus and the HMG Porter. I think hybrid cuben offers the best weight savings, and is good for bushwacking. No mesh side pockets, good point. In fact I can be happy with a pack as simple as a HMG porter.

Concerning the Osprey Exos, that's exactly a pack I don't want. I got one like that here (32L) and it never sees use, because other than heavy (over 2 lbs) it hurts my back by constricting flexible movement through its rigid frame.

I love to tie the pack to my hips snugly, but the shoulders should be very free (as in not being restricted by the packs frame and straps – the pack should flex with my shoulder movement)

When I look at the packs I like, I merely see a difference in material (hybrid cuben vs dyneema) and a difference in the use of stays (arc blast and porter use stays, others don't.
Do I need/want carbon/alu stays in the pack at 28 oz? Will these stays help in making feel 28 oz like less weight?
Will they constrict shoulder movement?

Do I want the heavier dyneema? Isn't hybrid cuben plenty good for a bushwhack here and there?
Oh and the pack will mostly see its use as an "expedition pack". The verto will remain my go-to pack, I can carry 7 days worth with it. The new pack is either for longer stretches, for winter hikes or for an occasional packrafting trip. Yea, a drybag style backpack could be useful.

Oh, and Woubeir, to answer your question, yes, I'm from Europe, and the "Hiking Advisor" website is my home base ;-) And yes, you are spot on, I want 45L internal volume in the main pack.

Jimmer, I have never received ANY money from Gossamer Gear. I am not compensated in any way by them. I have received several packs for testing and tested them for between two weeks and a month of nights out on the trail in the ADK's. NOT in my back yard. That is between 200 and 500 trail miles on all the packs I have tested. BEFORE the so called Ambasidor Program was started, Grant asked me to do testing for him.
To Quote:
"Would you be interested in doing some occasional testing for us? We have several things in development currently and we are always looking for objective quality feedback. I can't promise you what or when but if you are interested I'd love to add your name to the short list."

I take their packs, often on loan, and beat them. I have Osprey packs. I have Kelty packs. I have Golite packs. I have Gregory Packs. I have…well lets just say I have over sixteen packs, myself. I have purchased several others, not all Gossamer Gear packs, for my wife and children. I was using Gossamer Gear Packs since before they were just changing to their Gossamer Gear brand…they used to be GVP Gear. I have used about 35-50 different packs.

The Ambasidor program is NOT about recommending their gear and "shilling" for them. It IS about choosing the best gear for a purpose and communicating it to everyone else. I ONLY recommend Gossamer Gear because I have used their packs extensively and believe in their gear. I don't always recommend Gossamer Gear packs. I sometimes recommend Osprey or even a Gregory. I would not recommend the Kelty, it hurts my shoulders. I have used an old Spinnaker G5, an old pattern G4, a Sil G5 for my daughter, a MiniPosa (the forerunner to today's Gorilla,) at least three different Murmurs, well, the list goes on including 2 varients of the Gorilla. Of the packs I own and have used, only one was provided by Gossamer Gear, and, it was returned with a list of problems, now corrected on the current version.

I can get a discount on the gear they sell at the GG site, but I have my own homemade gear that is better, or, they don't carry specific item. For example, they have an AirBeam pad. I don't care for it and use an old original NeoAir on long trips. They still offer the NightLite pads, but of lower quality than the old ones. I recommend the Nunatak Luna pad in it's staid many times here at BPL. If I don't like it, I DON'T recommend it…I don't care if it IS a GG item they sell on their site. I could have purchased their new tarps. I make one that is far better for the ADK's and I purchased a ZPacks Hexamid Solo Plus for spring/fall. Being an Ambasidor means talking about and recommending gear. NOT making a sales pitch for GG. I am no salesman. I recently recommended a ZPacks Blast, larger, but still light, over a Mariposa. I use a Steripen, not a Sawyer filter as is available at GG.

I have over 1000 trail miles on the Gorilla packs. I will recommend it the same as you would recommend MLD packs. I did my longest hike with a Golite pack. But, only because it was BIG. Why don't I recommend an MLD pack? Because they tend to be smaller than GG packs and weigh more. I really don't care if they are more durable, the GG packs are durable enough. I use a Murmur for most of my hiking. I did NOT recommend it. Why? Durability could be an issue even though it was way less than a pound. And, it is just a little small at 2600-2700max(including extension) load out.

I use a SVEA 123r for most of my camping. It is a good reliable stove. But, I don't think you can buy it at Gossamer Gear, either.

I don't get paid. I don't get any advantage from being an Ambassador, even on their site. I don't even get any respect from the rest of the community here at BPL, as evidenced by your reaction to my being an Ambassador. Anything I recommend can always come back and bite me by being a poor performer. As an Ambassador, I am *expected* to say something, however. My recommendations do not have to be GG. But, I love the sport. I make recommendations to keep people safe, to make people comfortable in the woods, because others have taught me and I wish to pass on that teaching. Because, I participate in a physical activity in my retirement years. Because, living with nature is not the same as living on it. Because, I hate to have people say "Jim Marco *could* have helped…" Because, it feels good to be a nice guy.

Tell me Jimmer, besides the above, why are you shilling for MLD? You are in no way obligated to do so. Just apply those same reasons to me, please.

I would also recommend a custom made Zimmerbuilt pack. An excellent option when you know exactly what your needs are. Flawless workmanship, reasonable price, and a cottage company.

I said GEAR compensation – not money.

Every GG trail ambassador I have ever heard of gets somthing free from the start, Usually its a free pack etc worth severak hundred dollars and then follow on discounts This is all on GG's website .

If you are an exception to that ,then I stand cirrected butbittom line is you STULL have a relationship with Gossamer Gear. As long as you are on there list of Trail Ambassadors,perhaps that should be disclosed in your profile or sig line etc .

For transparency and adherance to the FTC guidlines, it would be better PR for Gossamer Gear if that were a firm policy for all Trail Amassadors recommending their gear on social media.

Simply adding that disclosure to a forum profile page or in a sig line takes little time and does not give people the wrong impression.

And as I read the GG trail ambsssador mission stayement they ARE expected to spread the word about GG products.. Why else give folks hundreds of dollars of free gear and discounts?

Again, if you are an exception to that ,then I stand corrected .

As to respect for you, actaully I have read a lot if your posts and your GG profile essay on their site. While I do respect your experience but the appearance is you are simply recommending their stuff at every opportunity due to your relationship with them.

And as I said, NONE of the GG trail ambassadors seem to ever divulge their Trail Ambassador status here when recommending GG stuff.

I have said my peice on this and will not.bring it.up again. I DO wish the management at Gossamer Gear would institute s firm online disclosure policy for its TAs.

Hey Sven,
It would probably be best for you to go the custom route. Someone above recommended Zimmerbuilt and that would be a great option. All of his packs look great and you always see very high praise for them. Also, I think a custom pack from zPacks would be a good idea for you.

And I would definitely at least get the option of removable stays. They can't hurt and will help the carry at higher weights. And, if the load is light enough, just remove them. I think you can remove the frame from an Arc Blast so that its basically a Zero. And Zimmer can build you a pack with a removable stay.

That's why I like my Gorilla so much. I can customize it to the weight I'll be carrying. So I would definitely go for a similar design if I was you.

"And yes, you are spot on, I want 45L internal volume in the main pack."

Regarding Zpacks, do keep in mind that the side pockets and the center back pocket account for 13 L and that nor the 45 nor the 52 have a main bag volume of 45 liters and that you have to go to the 60 to get that.

I did not know that about the zPacks packs. Going the custom route could yield the exact dimiensions he would want. I like a tall, narrow pack that's shallow. Keeps everything tighter to the back. I wish I could afford an Arc Blasy as well. A wasabi newt with pockets and a white Arc Blast. Then again, I want every pack. Ha

OK, Jimmer. I can add a line to my profile. It cost's little and it really isn't the point. When I leave the Ambassador program, I am expected to return the so called "free" pack to them to distribute to one of their charities. Nope, I cannot even sell it. It is actually a loaner, since, by these rules, I don't own it. As I stated, I talk to people about Ultra Light (or lighter) travel in the backwoods. I may give them a coupon to use at the GG site, but I really don't receive any benefit, other than being one of their Guinea pigs. And under non-disclosure agreement, I cannot even talk about that.

Wait, I did get a beanie from them. You got me, ha, ha. A beanie is fair and adequate recompense for three years of trail work, I guess. 'Corse I also received a Ice Breaker long johns from another company. And a hat from another company. Oh yeah, I got a gadget tool/spoon from another.

No, I am not going to list everyone that has given me free stuff. I will simply say thank you and move on.

Zimmer makes a nice pack. HMG makes a nice pack. I have bought from 6 moons as well. I now have a custom one on order from Cascade Craftworks that promises to be real nice. I would recommend any one of them. I like that Zimmer will customize at low cost, as will Cascade.
I applaud those who support the cottage industries. I like to buy USA because I live here, otherwise I would look locally.

Jimmer, please take the time to make your points in a manner which fits the forum guidelines.

Folks like to claim it, but I've yet to see an argument as to how the FTC endorsement regulations apply to an online forum. I've read the regs, but perhaps as a non-lawyer I'm missing something.

As a Gossamer Gear ambassador emeritus and someone who has worked and continues to work with a handful of companies on product development, the disclosure thing can be a tricky issue. Frankly it becomes redundant and tiresome to add a disclaimer to every little informational tidbit. Sometimes such a note is appropriate, and sometimes it is not. Hopefully people here will continue to use their integrity in this regard, and flag posts they think cross the line. On a personal note the GGear staff were always great to work with and never made any attempt to influence the way I discussed their stuff. They also took constructive feedback very well, and I gave them plenty. Their packs are good enough to stand by themselves.

Sven, of the American packs with which I'm familiar I think HMG and MLD would suit you best. Packrafting stuff tends to get heavy, and you might end up liking the stays on the HMG packs once in a while. The 4400 Porter is also nice as it's big enough to fit your foam PFD inside the main bag, and still compresses small enough for non-packrafting trips. From what I've seen MLD is better sewn than HMG, and you seem like the sort of hiker who could make a truly frameless pack work with a big load. HMG's hybrid cuben is more waterproof and a tad lighter than MLDs gridstop, and they're probably equally tough while bushwacking. The gridstop will stand up better to rock abrasion. I should also mention that the twin daisy chains on the Porter are perfect for strapping your pack to your raft, something MLD's standard design would do less well.

Sven, one note of real advice I can give is this; listen to Chenault when it comes to packs. He seems to be the main man around here when it comes to them.

Anyway, does MLD still have the full suspension option? I think that would suit his style well. Remove the frame bits when you don't need them, but you have them when you do need them. I'm being repetitive now.

You'll figure it out eventually.

Thanks David Chenault, Sam Riggle and Woubeir for your great advice.

I have to add the 26 lbs max load already include a possible packraft attached to the outside (i calculated 14 lbs for the raft + accesories) – otherwise the weight would always be below 20 lbs for sure.

Even though the HMG porter 3400 is made out of cuben, it weighs more than the MLD Exodus (3500 ci). The porter weighs 33 oz, the exodus 17 oz. That's almost double the weight. Even without the stays the Porter weighs a lot more.
Why is this?

HMG products are extremely over built. In no way am I saying its a bad thing. They are just as bomb proof as they come. Lots of reinforcements and the use of "heavy" materials causes they're weight to be higher. Just like how there Echo cat cut tarps weigh more than an MLD grace tarp even though both use .74 cuben. The HMG just uses more bomber reinforcements and tie out points. It's a compromise between weight and ultra durability.

"No free lunch" as many say on this site. Everything is compromise.

Edit to add: I think if you're 26 pounds is only for the occasional use of a pack raft, and you'd most likely stay below 20 on most trips, then I would DEFINITELY get something with a removable frame. That's just me though. But honestly, since you can use your Verto for most trips in the sub-20 lb TPW, then just get something framed for the heavy trips. I know I'm giving you conflicting advice, so I'm not really much help.

Recap: Get whatever makes you happy. :)

Sam,

Yep, MLD still offers the Air suspension upgrade ..

And to Sven,

Given your growing list of needs, (Expedition capable ,7 days worth of food,packraft etc..)

I would just get the Arc Haul at 24oz and be done with it.
The side pockets are full Dyneema and if the front mess pocket bugs you, then Joe can make it Dyneema as well. He pretty much has the suspension on that pack dialed in now, it should be able to haul anything you would stuff in it

If you make sure the torso length is tall enough to keep the shoulder straps off your shoulders and adjust the hipbelt properly, almost no weight should be on your shoulders and your torso should have plenty of room to flex as youp move.

Jimmer, I agree with you on the Arc Haul as well. Would definitely fill his needs.

Sven, you've been given some of the best options out there, now make a short list and research the hell out of them. Lol

Good luck on your search man. Hope you find the best pack for you.

14 pounds is a very generous allowance. My usual compliment of packrafting gear (Yukon Yak w/ deck and light thigh straps, paddle, foam PFD, lash straps, repair kit) is barely 10.

Frameless packs like the MLD line will always be the lightest option. The back panel is just one layer of fabric, with maybe some reinforcements for the shoulder straps and none for the belt (as it's sewn into the side seams). The HMG has a layer of foam in the backpanel, two layers of fabric to contain it, stay sleeves, reinforcements for the belt, foam in the lumbar pad, etc.

Adding a durable, functional suspension to a pack and keeping it under 2 pounds is not simple.

Thanks all for your advice. I ordered a modded Zpacks Arc Blast 60, because

1) the stays are removable – so basically I'll have a frameless, but if i need or want the stays, i'll add them
2) it's very light, even with the stays
3) I won't load it above 25 lbs (11.5kg) at the trailhead. If I ever get to the point I need to carry more than 25 lbs, I'll most certainly look for another pack, like the HMG porter or the ULA Epic. Usually load won't ever get over 22 lbs at the start though, and about 70% of that load are consumables.
4) Joe is willing to mod anything.

Looking forward to the snail mail from zPacks!