single vs double wall tent confusion

Who calls the DR a double wall?

It does have double wall aspects (the mesh door then the fly) but canopy is single.

Maybe when you put the liner in there it makes a double wall?

Actually, as I understand it, there are 3 categories for tents:

Single Wall;
Double Wall; and
Hybrid.

TT Rainbow would be considered a hybrid.

So there was a time when "double walled" commonly meant a tent with a rain fly and some other less waterproof material underneath, usually a breathable ripstop nylon. Any mosquito netting was neatly tucked behind (or in front of) a nylon door.

The "single walled" tents were simply a single wall of material, typically a VPM like Todd-tex, Tegral-tex, or Event. (Even Gore-tex was briefly used).

Life seemed simple back then.

Then came the tents with the inner material mostly made out of mosquito netting and no nylon panels, but all covered by the rain fly. Since they were NOT single walled, they were still called "double walled" tents… back then.

And also came the "convertible" tents, meant to be both 3 and 4 season shelters (with lots of mosquito netting, but with nylon panels behind all of them). But how is that any different than a double walled tent with windows?

And now, the word "hybrid" is being used, and might tend to refer to these mostly netted shelters under a rainfly. However, I also understand some companies use the term "hybrid" to mean the tent can effectively be "opened up" as a bug shelter but still keep the rainfly intact, so you can receive good ventilation while it's raining.

The bottom line: the language one manufacturer defines their shelter with may not be consistent with other manufacturers. It's hard to know if there is an "industry standard" (or if there ever was.)

The confusion rests with the ones that call the DR a double wall tent, I don't however remember having seen that definition.
At times it has been mentioned that by adding the liner it becomes functionally like a double wall tent.
The TT definition is "hybrid" because it is neither a tarp nor a double wall tent, in effect it is the trademark Tarptent , a shaped tarp (fly) with sewn in mesh walls/doors and floor.

As I understand it…

Considering all 4 walls and the top of the shelter:

*If there is only 1 wall at any point between you and the outside world, it is a single wall tent.
*If there is 2 walls between you and the outside world, it is a double wall tent.

Some may say that it is only a double wall if the inner wall between you and the outside world is another solid material, however, as far as I am concerned, even if the inner is made of mesh, it is still a wall, which makes it a double wall tent.

For example, my ZPacks Hexamid tarp and the Hexanet is a double wall tent, and my MLD Duomid and the inner net tent is a double wall tent when both pieces are set-up together. There is the mesh inner net tents, and then the solid cuben fiber canopy over that, so in these situations, there is 2 walls between me and the outside world.

A single wall tent is going to be something like the Tarptent Protrail, or the Double Rainbow, as well as something like the ZPacks Duplex. There is mesh attached to the canopy on these tents that form the walls, but the roofs are only 1 wall thick between you and the outside world. This is a single wall tent.

Of course, YMMV….

With the traditional single wall tents, say the typical freestanding mountaineering tents like the Bibler, when you open the door bugs get in.
That is why at Tarptent we call our non double-wall tents "hybrid" because with the door panels open you still have the same bug proof environment you have in a double wall shelter.

bibler might be a bad example, or maybe before they were bought by bd, but at least now, many if not most of the bd biblers have a mesh door behind the solid door.

Good point…
Temporary amnesia since I have seam sealed several of those tents…
Some of those 2 pole freestanding tent do have a mesh door but are mostly targeted for alpine/winter conditions. :

Hybrids and in particular the Double Rainbow work better in rainy weather and or when bugs are about but ventilation or views are preferred.
Two mesh walls with cross ventilation and mesh also between the floor and the two ends :

I recently broke my 2 two year moratorium on reviewing gear in my blog, where I did a review of the new SMD Deschutes CF tarp.

IMO, here is my definition of double wall tents from that review:

“One method to deal with condensation is a double-wall shelter. An inner tent made from a solid breathable material allows the vapor to pass through to the outer shell. This movement of warm air from your body “hangs” between the inner and out walls, which keeps the inner wall a little warmer and helps to reduce and delay the formation of condensation on the outer wall. A double wall shelter makes sense in the cold of winter, especially where it snows.

I don’t see backpackers adding a solid breathable material under their tarps to create a double-wall shelter, but I often see them adding an inner made from mesh material that often has a waterproof bathtub floor. The penalty for these inners is that they usually weigh more than the tarp! An inner made of mesh is not going to work to minimize condensation, because the material will not warm up like a solid breathable material.”

If you are inclined to read the review, it is here.

While the Bibler's have the mesh panel behind the door, some models make that removable (like the vestibule.) Given that the single layer of material both manages bulk water, vapor, and condensation. I'd still call it a "single walled" shelter.

Having sold many Bibler's in my past life, they were always commonly considered "single walled" tents, regardless of door netting.

To the contrary of the earlier posts, there are many of us that will define a double walled shelter as one where the inside material is designed to "manage" vapor transport to reduce overall condensation, leaving the outer material to manage bulk water. Mosquito netted tents lets vapor easily pass through it, but do not aid toward managing condensation whatsoever.

I believe it is especially difficult for the average consumer who may ask for a "double walled" for shoulder season/winter use (because someone told them that's what they need), and be shown a fully mosquito netted tent w/ rainfly, which may not serve them very well whatsoever. On the other hand, how is one to distinguish between a Bibler single walled tent, and a Tarptent single walled (or hybrid) tent. These types of tents are both wonderful for their intended use, but will perform quite differently do to their materials. Maybe "hybrid" is a good term for these? I don't quite know.

Furthermore, there are many authentic "double walled" tents which also have mosquito netted doors & windows (on the tent body), underneath the rain fly. Are those now to be called "triple walled" tents?

Again, I believe we all have our opinions on the matter, but since there is not agreed upon industry standard, confusion will arise, especially when folks are asking questions about particular types of tents, and receiving advice from people with differing definitions.

One function of inner wall is to let you know you're touching it so you stop before touching the outer wall that has condensation on it

Another thing is, the outer wall has radiant heat loss. If you're under a clear sky, it can easily be 10 degrees colder, and will therefore have much more condensation. The inner wall does not have this radiant heat loss to the clear night sky, so it will be 10 degrees warmer, which may mean no condensation at all.

If you're under a tree or it's cloudy, this will be a minor affect.

The inner wall may be warmer because of the air layer between it and the outer wall, but this is probably minimal. For one thing, you want air to circulate between inner and outer to carry any humid air away. Another thing is, the tent has a large area compared to your sleeping bag/quilt. If the tent area is 10 X your sleeping bag area, then the watts/meter^2 will be 1/10th, so the temperature difference across the air space between inner and outer walls will be about 1/10th. But it's complicated so you'd have to measure it.

Not to pull thread drift but Franco needs to put a disclaimer in his posts to say he works for Tarptent. At least I think he works for TarpTent. Frequently his posts are overly positive about the TarpTent brand and so the posts become a source of advertisement. Just my opinion.

I post often about Hilleberg tents but I do not work for Hilleberg. And on my last trip I wrote "The Akto has two leaks and is a piece of crap tent!". I have never seen Franco negatively review a TarpTent—but of course no tent is perfect and all have flaws.

I think it is common knowledge that Franco has a relationship with Tarptent. Before his relationship with Tarptent, he had a lot of experience with many brands, and entered into a relationship with Tarpetent because he liked the product. Whenever Franco talks about tents I read with interest, as I consider him a subject mater expert. He does compliment some non-Tarptent shelters in his posts.

Since we are thread drifting here, I have one Tarptent product, a Scarp 1, which is similar to your Atko, the only real difference being it has never leaked. Of course I seam-sealed it when I got it. I seal all my shelters unless the seams are taped. Sewn and taped is best. I carefully inspect any new shelter and seal any point that looks like it might leak, even if the manufacturer says it won't leak — those promises are usually marketing spin.

I recently bought a shelter that was sewn and taped, with the statement from the manufacturer that seam sealing was not needed — after a thorough inspection by me, I determined the manufacturer was accurate with this statement. This shelter, a mid, didn't need any practice by me to set it up. I could have grabbed a few stakes and gone bacpacking with it. Good thing I inspected it, because it had no guyline loops sewn on, someone forgot to add them. Had I not checked I would have been in a world of hurt on my first trip. The company fixed it quickly with no inconvenience other than a 6 day turn around. Sh*t happens.

If I were to buy an Atko, I would inspect it for possible leak points, even if the manufacturer said it won't leak. Your leaking Atko experience could have been avoided with an inspection prior to its use. Manufacturing processes and quality do not always produce 100% perfect quality every time, especially when it comes to a complicated sewing product like the Atko.