Ruta Locura Sale/ New stove setup

[Dan Gregerson]

Pardon the thread drift, but wanted to share that I've actually been using my JB Sol Ti cup with an alcohol stove setup. I wanted to try going with the lighter system, but the JB cup was the only titanium I had laying around, so I MYOG a windscreen out of 6" duct material (a little heavy perhaps at 1 oz., but free because I had it already and it works well with the pre-fab join that 'clicks' together). Drilled a couple holes for ti stakes to suspend the cup about 2" above the flame and paired it with a Zelph stove.
The big advantage over a typical Ti pot (for me) is the ability to make good coffee with the coffee press. Sorry, but for me, that's huge. Savoring a good cup o' joe in the morning is about the best thing in the wilderness experience.
So, I boil water for breakfast in the cup, have oatmeal in the bowl/bottom, then the cup becomes my coffee mug. If I went with a Ti pot, I would need to carry a separate bowl or cup to accomplish the same thing, plus another way to make coffee (I know, that's a whole 'nother thread).
Windscreen 1 oz
Cup/bowl/original lid 6.5 oz
Rod/screen for press .75
2 Ti stakes .5
Zelph stove/lid .75
Total weight = 9.5 oz.

Boil times avg. around 7 minutes, so I'm very interested in Josh's new stove for speeding up that process. Looks like the weight of his new mod is pretty close to the Zelph actually.

[Theo Diekmann]

Do you leave the cozy on for use with alcohol? I guess I'd be slightly concerned b/c of the less precisely directed flame of an alcohol stove.

[Dan Gregerson]

I do leave the cozy on and haven't had any problems. The pot is considerably wider than the stove, so no 'creep' of flame up the edge. Also, the pot is a 1.25 inches above the stove, and the bottom of the cozy is another 1.75" above the bottom pot edge –so actually quite a distance from the flame. Plus, I imagine the cozy is heat resistant to start with.

[Bob Gross]

"I don't know what you mean there, Bob."

We know that there is some extra weight of metal that you are carrying around as part of a JetBoil rig as compared to a conventional cook pot. You are carrying that extra weight on the first day and every day out to the finish of your trip. However, slowly that will pay off in reduced fuel usage, which means reduced fuel weight, and that fuel is heaviest on the first day and then reduces to almost nothing by the trip finish.

If you were going to be cooking for only one day, the extra metal weight would not pay off enough in fuel weight saved. On the other hand, if you were going to be cooking for twenty days, then I'm guessing that the fuel weight savings will easily offset the extra metal weight. My question is, "When does this prove in, at four days or eight days or never?"

The number of days will vary depending on the individual variables, especially how many boiling sessions per day that you do. If you boil a lot, then it will prove in over a shorter number of days. If you don't boil much, then it will take a larger number of days to prove in.

Personally, I know the normal length of my own trips and how much boiling I do, so I am just trying to figure out how practical the whole JetBoil concept makes, using the tiny burner, etc.

–B.G.–

[Bob Gross]

"You would just need a chunk of foam to protect the pot/stove."

Around the butane burner, I wrap some aluminum foil. That happens to be the same foil that is my normal windscreen. Then, if I need to be really careful for transport, I wrap my sleeping socks around the foil. So, I have not seen butane burner damage.

–B.G.–

[Theo Diekmann]

I think the weight advantage of gas over alcohol for some trips is due to the different "weight curve" of gas in contrast to alcohol:
On the last day of the trip, with all fuel consumed, alcohol/esbit will always be lighter than gas due to the higher system weight of the latter (and the empty canister). However, on the first day of a trip, gas might be lighter (depending on trip duration and cooking habits). But even in that case, over the course of a trip, there will be some "equilibrium point", where alcohol/esbit will become more favorable than gas weight-wise for the remainder of the trip.
In other words: The "weight-curve" of gas is flatter but has a lower offset (initial weight) than alcohol.

The question is: When the "favorability" of the fuels are time-dependent, how can we determine which one is more favorable overall? One could do some elaborate "weight-advantage times number of days"-calculations, but for me the anwer is simple: On the first day of the trip, my pack will be heaviest due to the amount of food carried. This is where any weight-savings come in really handy. However, on the last few days with an ultralight baseweight and a few days of food, 200-300g extra don't make much of a difference.

In order to maximally profit from the "flatness of the gas-weight-curve", the stove must be very fuel efficient while still maintaining a reasonable system weight. This is why I choose the jetboil.
Also the total fuel needed should approximately fit one of the three canister sizes. This requirement often is the key issue with gas.

[Bob Gross]

"Do you remember my Snow Peak Giga with integrated windscreen from a few years ago?"

Frankly, no. I'm sorry.

I've been primarily an Esbit user for a few years, so I have not always paid attention to the butane burners. However, now in California we are warned about increased fire risk and the resulting fire restrictions that may be declared. I ran into that once last summer, so I am trying to keep a stance in both camps now, Esbit and butane.

With Esbit, besides my fuel weight, the whole water boiling system is less than three ounces of metal (600ml pot, Esbit tri-wing burner, aluminum foil windscreen).

–B.G.–

[Bob Gross]

Theo, there were some fuel weight usage charts on Thru-Hiker, and I think they have been there for a long time. However, since those charts were formulated, we have seen some significant reductions on the weight of a butane burner and maybe a few other pieces and parts. For one small item, I see butane canisters with 4.0 ounces net weight and also some with 3.53 ounces. I think that the metal weight of 4 ounces is still relatively current.

So, I am just hoping that we can "dust off" some of the old numbers and guidelines and get something up-to-date for 2015.

"However, on the last few days with an ultralight baseweight and a few days of food, 200-300g extra don't make much of a difference."

Here at BPL, those are fighting words.

–B.G.–

[Theo Diekmann]

Bob, you wrote:

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"However, on the last few days with an ultralight baseweight and a few days of food, 200-300g extra don't make much of a difference."

Here at BPL, those are fighting words.

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Well, you're kind of taking my statement out of the context there. What I meant was, that if I were faced with the options of a) carrying more weight in the beginning (alcohol) or b) at the end (gas) of a trip, I'd rather choose the latter over the former.

That being said, most of the time I use alcohol as – regarding my cooking habits – it is the lighter option. The bigger issue (and imho the biggest issue with gas) usually is that the trip duration does not match one of the canister sizes.

[Bob Moulder]

The bigger issue (and imho the biggest issue with gas) usually is that the trip duration does not match one of the canister sizes.

This is why you need a good scale (at least +/-1g accuracy) so you can take partially used canisters and know without doubt that you'll have enough fuel.

Of course, as you've noted, you're still carrying ~100-150g for that 4-8oz canister.

Re stove hack… I just knew I'd want to do something like this which is why I ordered 2 of them. Paired with the MiniMo cup, it'll make a nice set-up. Going to look at it later today to determine if rather than bending the support arms it's feasible to shorten them slightly with a Dremel cutting wheel. Anyone looked at this?

[Bob Moulder]

Ah, never mind… I just put the stove fins into the base of the pot and the problem is obvious… fin alignment.

Hey, I have plenty of pliers. :^)

So naturally I had to get right on this.

Bending the supports was super easy using an adjustable wrench as sort of a mini-vise and bending the ends of the supports outward with just my thumb.

Did a quick test using 4 cups of water @44°F (which barely fits in the MiniMo cup).

At first I turned the flame up pretty high and then even higher to see what would happen at full throttle. Starved for air, and un-burned fuel could be smelled. Then turned it down to the point it seemed quite efficient.

Despite all this fiddling around on the first burn, brought the 44°F water up to 205°F in 5:05 using exactly 10g fuel. This very good efficiency, but because of the air intake deficit at higher output levels it won't achieve Reactor-like times. But still, quick enough and very efficient.

The way the burner head sticks up in there, I'm guessing wind resistance will be pretty good as well.

Also, although using no reflector on top of the canister, the canister got barely warm on top and was cool on the sides.

[James Marco]

?? I thought everyone knew about that.

I have a couple pots/pans from JetBoil that just slip over the supports on the old SVEA. I just keep them turned in, usually. The Frying pan works with the supports turned out. I picked these up maybe 7-8 years ago to use it while car camping. The dremel works on a few stoves, but the bends usually don't have to be to drastic for others, just a tweak if you have three support stoves (Jetboil likes 90degree angles.) Sometimes you might need to cut or grind about 1/4" off each. It was so obvious I never thought about it.

[Josh Leavitt]

Here are some updated test results for those doing the math:

Pot: Jetboil Ti Sol
Stove: Modified BRS-3000T
Air temp: 53*F
Starting water temp: 34*F
Wind: Very slight breeze
Water: 16oz
Elevation: ~4400'
Time to a rolling boil: 2 min 44sec
Fuel consumption: 7g

So with a 100g(3.5oz net weight(fuel), 7oz gross weight(fuel and canister) canister, theoretically you could do two 16oz boils a day for 7 days.

Other thoughts: I have not tested this with the wider pots, so there may be a fuel/air starvation issue because of the wider pots IDK. Edit: Try the wider pots with a heat shield.

Are there lighter, more compact alcohol or Esbit setups? Of course there are. Or you could ditch everything but the pot and work on your fire building skills for even more weight reduction. For the lightest setup possible, leave it all at home and don't cook. I think this is where peoples personal comforts and preferences really come into play. Because like I said, no cooking, by the numbers is the absolute lightest.

Cooking: The BRS-3000T actually simmers quite well. In the aluminum pots you can cook as long as the food is not too dry. The Ti pots definitely hot spot, and are for boiling water only.

[DGoggins]

quote

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So, I am just hoping that we can "dust off" some of the old numbers and guidelines and get something up-to-date for 2015.

---

I know its not as pretty as thru hiker's charts, but I went ahead and made my own excel spreadsheet here ->

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-jvbavIuESX-MUHIxt4QXQmzZnDcanLGtzwKnLlYTNA/edit?usp=sharing

And yep, you had better believe that its not cleaned up and hard to read.

Anyway, in a nutshell, it compares a few systems that I just happen to own (I can add any other system if you want).

Actually…I would really like John's 550ml pot system info ->

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My 550ml Ti pot + lid + reflectix cozy weighs 2.7oz
BRS-3000T stove weighs 0.9oz
Total: 3.6oz

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….all I need is how much fuel it takes to boil 500mL of 32-34* water (time wouldn't be bad either), and weight of an aluminum windscreen (like half moon…I know you are not supposed to fully enclose a canister).

So, the chart shows how many 2 cup boils, with their respective start and end weights, in grams and oz. It assumes you are only using 100g fuel canisters and not the larger ones (though I could easily add that in, though adding a mix of both 100g and 220g fuel canisters would be more difficult)

The chart also shows weights if you always start with a full gas canister, and also if you start with gas canisters with the EXACT amount of fuel you need. In reality, you are usually somewhere in the middle, though I believe you will generally always be closer to the full canister weights.

My particular chart shows that the even the larger 1.3L evernew setup ALWAYS beats the jetboil setups at even the starting weight. If I switch the jetboil pot to be 3.7oz (titanium version), it only beats it on boils 12,13 and 14 with starting weight (end weight alcohol always beats it).

Yes, the jetboil is 4x faster to boil….though the caldera cone is darn close to windproof. If you don't care about speed (like…go pitch your shelter while water is boiling), then alcohol is great.

[Bob Gross]

"hard to read"

Thanks for the warning.

I'm going to have to get a task force to decipher it for me.

–B.G.–

[Bob Moulder]

hard to read

LOL! :^)

Lotsa raw data… just need to "boil it down" to deltas.

Good stuff, though, and evidence of the search for "real" numbers that reflect actual performance in the field.

[Josh Leavitt]

I just did a burn like Bob Moulder, I turned the stove down to about half throttle. Big Duh, I never thought to try this, as I was burning it like the stock Jetboil stove. It took 4 1/2 minutes to boil two cups of water, but only used 5 grams of fuel, verses 7 grams for for wide open shorter burn times. This was in the Ti Sol pot. I'll have to play with this some more.

[Gary Dunckel]

Josh, your results, and also Bob Moulder's, are very similar to what I've experienced. I am curious as to what the flame setting was for your recent test (low, medium-low, medium, or fairly high–I know, I know, this is pretty subjective). And you didn't have any flame sputter in the gentle breeze? Ha–where do you guys find 34* F water anyway? That's winter camping mode, not patio testing.

I noticed today that the burner-to pot distance for the stock Jetboil Sol burner is about 1/2" lower than that of the BRS-3000T. That could explain why Bob and I saw incomplete combustion (gas smells) at a higher flame setting. For me, the sweet spot for no smells, 5 gram boils, and a 3:00 minute boil time, is when the flame is at what I call medium-low. For my stove, it is where the valve is positioned vertically, maybe opened 1/4 turn from the "off" position. At this setting, any breeze seems to mess with the flame a bit, but that is easily mitigated via a half-circle wind screen.

[Bob Moulder]

Gary, yes, very subjective, but I would estimate my efficient setting (based on 1 burn… ludicrous, I know) similar to your description of medium-low. I'm fairly certain that if the whole burn were done at that level the fuel consumption for my standard four cups would be in the 9.6-9.8g range, averaging out all the variables of water temp, altitude, ambient, etc… 10g and below is very good.

Funny how smell is a pretty useful sensor sometimes. I just kept turning it down until it "smelled right".

Our water today was 44°F right out of the faucet even though the high temp today was 83°F!

Your boil times are what I'd expect. I heated up only to 205°F because a rolling boil would've made a mess in my kitchen with the pot filled almost to the rim.

BTW, I also did a quick test with a Primus Eta 1l HX pot and got almost identical results. Gotta get me some 4Dogs lids because the stock ones on both the JB and the Primus (especially) are just plain stupid-heavy.

[DGoggins]

"Ha–where do you guys find 34* F water anyway?"

I use an ice bath. I was using ice water when doing tests with my 1.3L evernew pot and starlyte xl b/c I wanted a consistent starting point.

Its actually hard to get 32* water….you can, its just that the ice bath has to be nearly full of ice, which leaves little water to keep doing 2cup boils. It did get consistently 34* temp water though.

[Gary Dunckel]

Looks like we're starting to get this dialed in, Bob and Josh. And yeah, Bob, get a SP 900 lid from 4Dog for your MiniMo (it's a perfect fit for both the MiniMo and the MSR Titan Kettle, besides the SP 900 pot) and swap out his heavy, bulky wood knob for something else. Much lighter than JB's silly snap-on lid, and the 4Dog allows you to easily lift the lid with one hand to stir your simmering goodies.

Thread drift here: Recently I was given a 2014 edition of Liberty Mountain's 1200-page, big phone book size catalog. Talk about a coffee table book for gear geeks! LM supplies every store in America with every piece of gear imaginable. I saw where Olicamp sells a nearly identical stove as the BRS-3000T, but it's all titanium, with I think a brass thread. 1.5 oz., and $50. So we're looking pretty good with our 25 gram $10.99 BRS stoves. At least so far…

[DGoggins]

"Gotta get me some 4Dogs lids because the stock ones on both the JB and the Primus (especially) are just plain stupid-heavy."

Does 4dog make custom lids? I mean….all I see on the site are for snow peak cups. Is he good about creating other size lids for like jetboil, etc?

[Gary Dunckel]

Nope, no custom lids. Just the ones you see on Don's web site. Various SP lids only. I'd kill for a Jetboil lid, for my Sol and PCS cups.

[DGoggins]

I think a good option is still the ruta locura carbon fiber lids.

I had one for my evernew .9L caldera cone setup and really liked it. I believe it weighed 8 grams. Lot less weight than the 4dog ones, though I put a piece of tape on top for a handle…not sure how much the 4dog wooden handles are.

[Bob Moulder]

Gary, do you know the weight of your 4Dog lid with your replacement knob?

Right now I'm leaning toward a RL lid.

@Josh, thanks for getting the ball rolling on this… makes for a very nice canister stove setup!

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