Revelation vs Revelation Pro

850 will take up less volume….barely.

800 will hold its FP rating slightly (percentage-wise) longer than 850 as it gets dirty….again…barely.

850 is barely easier to "smoosh" slightly as you move around in your quilt…basic density result of movement.

…and then the weight difference.

Those are your factors. Weigh them accordingly.

HTH

KJ

The difference between the regular Revelation and the Pro is that the Revelation Reg. is filled with 800 Grey Duck Down (GDD), the Pro model is filled with 850 Grey Goose Down (GGD). The price difference is due to the fill coming from different birds.

Sorry I should have been more clear.. I do realize that. I'm just trying to figure out if the $100 increase in price is just going to save me .79 of an ounce or is there other reasons I should go for the Pro over the regular.

^^^

So, ~$126.58 per ounce for weight savings.

Sorta depends where you are in terms of base weight. At 12# it seems a little steep. If you're at 8#, well, that's a BPL UL no-brainer.

IMHO YMMV etc.

And it depends on what base weight you are likely to get to in the future.

A quilt is a big investment and lasts a very long time.

If you are likely to get to sub 8# in the next couple of years, it may be worth spending that $127/ounce now. Later, you have to buy a whole new quilt, while you still otherwise have a perfectly good one. That used one could be gear swapped to recover some cost, but you won't recover all, so the $/oz goes up further.

Otherwise, if you think you'll be happy to skip that .79 ounce indefinitely, then there are probably many, many ways to save weight at far far better $/oz. Depends where you are on the weight spectrum and what gear and skills you have already.

Down quilts and bags seem to hold their value fairly well on gear swap on BPL. People seem to be pretty keen to buy down that has seen a LOT of use to, at quite fair prices to the seller. I think its good…it is reflective of the long term durability and quality of down sleeping gear, and the BPL community seems fairly educated on that.

Sorry guys I'm a little confused.. why would i pay more to save weight if my pack weight was already so low? If anything, wouldn't that mean that extra ounce in weight savings is less needed? My base weight is at 10.5lb.

There's a reason why the 8oo duck down is cheaper…it's not nearly as good! The 850 goose down quilt, although lighter, will keep you warmer. Just because the duck down takes up the same volume in the baffles doesn't mean it provides the same amount of warmth.

I understand assuming the same fill weight of 850 vs 800 down, the 850 would be warmer. Either option you choose though, you are choosing a temp rating. Not a fill amount. Thus shouldn't they both be the same temperature?

"Just because the duck down takes up the same volume in the baffles doesn't mean it provides the same amount of warmth."

I would be interested in some evidence to back this up. Assuming the lofting downs are creating heat trapping air spaces and assuming the loft is the same by using the proper amounts of each to achieve a balanced result in each quilt, what is making the 850 ggd warmer than a quality dd, other than marketing of course?

I wonder if the ducks know this :)

Do you have a source for your statement about it being "not nearly as good"?

Most down suppliers and down product manufactures do in fact state that goose down in generally better due to down producing larger clusters from older birds. If you had two quilts, one with 900 DD and the other with 900 GD, that were otherwise identical, it would be essentially impossible to tell them apart without precise equipment, let alone a human body.

Interestingly, the highest quality and most expensive down in the world is Eider down – and comes from the Eider duck. One of the sources mentioned below that duck down is usually less expensive due to the perception that it's inherently lower quality and due to ducks being more populous than geese.

PS – has anyone seen any Eider down backpacking gear? I've seen a Eider down Black Diamond jacket, but that was it

http://downmark.com/consumer_information/down_feather_quality.htm

http://www.downbuyingguide.com/content/101/df101.html

I used the Enigma 20 (800fp gdd… duck) approximately 15 nights this past winter in temperatures down to -6°F (in combination with hooded down coat and down pants, and with proper air mat/CCF pad combo) and remained warm. I got the Enigma because I don't need the footbox adjustability for winter.

It compacts very nicely in the bottom of my Arc Blast 52l using no stuff sack, and the long/wide size weighs 22.07oz (1.37lb, actual weight on my digital scale, including elastic pad straps) and cost $275 shipped.

Superb value IMO. No regrets at all.

I was in the same situation as you. After making very scientific investigation my verdict is – no it is not worth to spend THAT much money for saving an ounce. Why? Simply because that ounce will be eaten up by error in your scales and fluctuations of water&food amount you carry. Total waste. :)

BTW, you can save the same weight by NOT ordering the protective stripes on the quilt. I got good tip here on BPL: just throw your rain jacket on the bottom of quilt. Adjust as needed. Viola! You saved that once and the stripes cost!

If you are really rich, go for an high-end 1000 fill and pay for it. But unless you care for money IMHO, if I were you I won't spend that much for the ounce.

Greg.

P.S. I saw the statement here about goose down vs duck down warmth. Well, if I understand it correctly, not the down gives the insulation but the air that is trapped in the quilt. Down is needed for providing loft. I believe that there is a negligible effect of the filling type because it affects the air flow within quilt. But, this effect is almost the same in 800 and 850 FP down no matter what bird was killed to make it.

Just my $0.02

Nunatak used to offer eider, though I always thought it might be a joke. $125/ounce surcharge, so a 40 F quilt would cost about $900 and a basic Skaha sweater $1100. In Tom's words "Perfectly reasonable. Because certain things in life can't be logically justified." An eiderdown quilt for your king bed at home is on offer from Cuddledown at $17,000. At those prices I'd worry about every feather that escaped.

Yeah, I had an old eider jacket that I just plain wore out. There were small plastic bags of down around the outside sewn into canvas outer and some sort of satin inner. Very expensive, my uncle used this during the Korean War, though not military issue.

It leaked feathers near the end and the canvas was rotting off it from dragging on the ground. Anyway, at the time, I was not interested in down, much, being only 10-12 years old and just learning how to hunt (I received a used single shot 22 for my birthday.) It was a nice "tent" when I crouched down, very warm. There is a difference in feathers. Eider has barbed type down where-as goose has much smoother down. It was very difficult to pull out a single feather with eider.

All down never has a center "stalk." Often a vestigial shaft may be present, but even this will detract from it's value. Usually, these are the ones that get pushed out of a quilt/bag. Down grows from a center root. 100% DOWN is used to describe Goose down with with no feathers. DOWN may contain <10% feathers. Use extreme caution when buying down. You are expected to know what you are buying, by law in the USofA. Often cheaper DOWN can contain feathers, regardless of it's fill power. That is a different measurement.

It is easy to think of solid as being more conductive for heat than hollow. Good down feathers from older birds is better, generally. Duck down has more center stalks than goose down, so it looses a bit on conductivity. Goose down is larger so has less centers per weight.

Even damp, not wet, down performs pretty well. Even with 1/3 of the loft compressed (or more.) It does not conduct heat all that well. The synthetics all fail in this department(or are much heavier than is feasible to take camping,) conducting heat more than down. But wet, they do perform better since they do not wick water(and heat) as much as down. Water conducts heat fairly efficiently. Down lofts between 2-4 times its volume, far better than synthetics by weight when dry. It looses when wet. I do not sleep in a mud puddle.

The difference between 800 and 850 down can simply be the addition of some feathers, or, smaller down clusters. (Smaller down clusters do not loft as well as larger ones, but some are too soft to support any weight, including their own.) Dry static electric charges can cheat a test significantly. Grab a handful of good down and compare that to grabbing a handful of cheap down. Keep it clean and dry.

Someone who maintains their down regularly (once per trip) will likely fare better with 800fp down than someone who washes their bag once a year but has 850fp down. Do not use a detergent, always use a very mild soap (down wash.)

Is it worth the extra $100. I would not, since most of the time I camp in the North East in wet or damp conditions. Lower fill power downs perform equally or better under damp conditions, but not as good under dry conditions. If you are shooting for low base weights, go for it. When light weight trumps dollars, use your skill to stay dry and enjoy.

Thanks for the info guys. How is the down leakage on the EE quilts? Is it worth getting 20D material on the inside as a protection from this or are they fine without it?

down leakage on the EE quilts?

Mine is all 10D and I might've seen 1 or 2 plumes after 1 season (winter).

I just happened to be reading a gear list for a Polar Antarctic Journey in the early 1900's and they list reindeer sleeping bags at 12lbs each along with Eider-down linings at 4lbs a piece.

Anyone familiar with reindeer bags and their effectiveness? Nonetheless, very interesting stuff.

I have an EE quilt with the 20D material at the head and feet. It does a pretty good job of dealing with the occasional moisture when that part of the quilt touches the tent when there's condensation inside. The quilt compacts very small in a 6L compression sack. My wife and I will receive our 2-person Accomplice quilt next week.

I'm interested in this distinction James draws between lower and higher quality down at the same fill power. James, or others, do you have a sense of what MYOG companies are selling high quality down?

I'm thinking about getting some for a quilt project, perhaps from Wilderness Logics or Down Linens.

Also, has anyone looked into ethically sourced down? I know Down Linens's is Bluesign certified.

Cheers, E

Sorry, Edward. Most is sourced from China with the next most common source being Europe. If a quantity is bad enough, some people won't buy it. Others will spend only top dollar for top quality. I don't think a major company (like Western Mountaineering) will bother selecting stuff by hand. It will take about a day to go through a batch of down by hand. That is what it takes. Just check the USA laws on such things and be aware that many companies will just slide by, doing what it takes to meet their requirements. Often, I do not see 100% goose down on advertised products anymore, just down. Yet both may offer 800fp products. Japanese, Chinese and other Asian companies do not have to comply with the legal restrictions soo, they just sell DOWN or may advertise they use selected 100% Goose Down which is not the same thing. Buyer beware, especially looking to buy raw quantities.

Raw feathers from mature birds are generally only harvested once per year. This is the spring breeding season. Most birds will molt at this time and you can find large amounts of mature feathers. Summer molts are a lot less in quantity and size. The bird barely notices the removal of down at this time. Indeed, I had a pair of friendly Canada Goose that would allow me to pet them and would sometimes come up looking to be petted. I would sometimes pull a small handful of feathers (and down) from them…they never flinched. I think they actually liked it since it tended to cool them off a bit, reduce "itching" and cleaned off the raggedy hangers getting ready to drop. They are fastidious about keeping a well groomed pelt. Ahh, well…long since gone, now.

Most down is not harvested this way. The birds are usually killed out of season, then simply plucked of all feathers. This yields a larger percentage of smaller immature down clusters. Later this is separated. This is as ethical as it can be, feathers and down are only a byproduct.

Some is live plucked as the feathers become large enough. Some are plucked 2,3 or 4 times a year. Again, not mature, just large enough. This is what the animal cruelty people are against. Think of pulling your hairs out one by one at each plucking…worse, feathers are actually growing tissue, your hair is not. Theoretically, they do not pull "live" feathers…