General Help. Newbie. Sleeping Bag

Have you considered quilts? They are worth considering. Some people, myself included, love them.

a popular example:
reg. width/length 20 degree quilt from EE is $250
http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/revelation/

Pros and cons of a quilt vs. bag?

Brendan, just some quick advise. Your sleep system and shelter are IMO the place to put the bulk of your investment up front if possible. It will save you the most weight and assure you the most comfort in your backcountry camping. Weather you choose bags or quilts something of high quality will cost you but will be well worth it in the end. A good UL shelter split two ways will be very light on both your back and your wallets. After you combine those items with the best fitting packs you can find you can scrape together almost any old gear to get started and do just fine. MYOG if you have the sewing and craftsman skills and look for good used gear as well.

have fun man and make the trips enjoyable for your GF. There is nothing better than traveling with your better half :)

jimmyb

Pros:

*As a side/rotisserie sleeper, I got frustrated maneuvering a mummy bag so that my head was properly aligned in the hood. The pad attachment straps anchor the quilt to my pad, then I can move around as I please.

*Less weight because you're not carrying underside bag insulation that's just gonna get compressed. Your pad, which you're carrying anyway, takes care of underside warmth.

*If temps are warmer than expected it's easier to regulate your temperature. On top you can spread it out w/out having the hood in an an awkward position. On the bottom you can unzip the footbox (if it has a zip foot box) or just stick a leg out. If it's cold, snap and cinch down the neck (will need a hat, hood, or balaclava).

*If you have a zip footbox, slightly easier to air/dry out that end of it.

*you get to brag about your esoteric lightweight gear.

Cons:

*Some people are concerned about drafts, prefer being all snugged up w/a mummy. To some degree a personal thing. I find the EE pad attachment straps snug down well enough for me.

****

Also if the sig other needs new sleeping gear too, and you do all your trips together, EE makes a sweet looking double quilt that has gotten some good reviews.

I work for Enlightened Equipment, so obviously I'm somewhat biased in this, but I will add this as a Pro to Katherine's remarks: in colder weather, I like to still keep the quilt on me when I'm getting dressed or getting my boots or shoes on, which goes a lot easier in a quilt. Also, for late night trips, getting into and out of a quilt is in my experience a lot more graceful.

Peter
EE

Thanks for all the answers everyone. I am not too sure if I would enjoy a quilt or not. I do some hammock camping so I can see using a quilt can work well in that situation. I am starting to leave my comfort zone so all I really need is a push. Id really like to see some in person to get a better idea on how they work. I will do my research!

Even if you do decide to go bag rather than quilt, keep in mind that you no longer have to have a mummy bag. I've hated these with a passion since REI decided (in the 1980s?) that all "serious" backpachers have to use them. For me that just means I'm usually breathing into insulation (wetting it) with one cold ear. Once you get past REI into cottage industry bags, you will see that many bags are not mummy bags. I prefer a separate down hood. I can cinch up my bag around it as needed, and I can keep the hood on in the morning cold after getting out of bag.

Take a look at ZPacks sleeping bags. They are, technically speaking, sleeping bags, but have some of the advantages of a quilt. The zipper is on the bottom. No, you don't feel it at all with an inflatable mattress. When warmish, you sleep with it open like a quilt (fully on top of you). When cold, you fluff all the down to the part that will be on top of you, then zipper it up all the way. So no draft, and relatively little down wasted between you and mattress.

On the quilt side, one other advantage is that you can get a two-person quilt. I have not tried one nor told my wife that such a thing exists.

I have a Montbell #3, whatever their top model stretch bag is called. It's 21 oz without stuff sack. The DWR is so good that I slept near the opening of a tarp at 38 F in a rain/wet snow, getting about 6 inches of the bag totally wet along most of the length. The down inside was dry! I just shook off the water. Mine is barely a 32F bag, but I hear they've corrected that issue with the newer bags.

Really though, I usually just use it like a quilt!

"Id really like to see some in person to get a better idea on how they work."

Dunno where in Indiana you are, but I'm down in the Evansville area and would be happy to get together some time – I've got plenty of hammock gear + Enlightened Equipment top & bottom quilts. Shoot me a PM if you want to pursue this.

$200, 20dF, down, and top quality sleeping bag usually dont go together.

That said with a girlfriend in tow I would look for a pair that zip together or if you are ready to drop some coin on a quilt look into the Zpacks 20dF twin quilt. It weighs about 30 oz +- and as much as some down single bags weigh alone, only its a double. It is expensive in the $600 range. Better for romping around.

As for tents I would look at the big sky international tents. Primarily the Big Sky Revolution 2P. At least I think that is the one with the removable interior but you better check.

That tent is light, double wall, has an exoskeleton and that makes it easier to set up in the rain plus the inner tent detaches if you ever want to head out when bug free (probably without the GF) you leave the inner at home, IE lighter.

I am only hesitant to drop some serious coin on a quilt/bag because I am not confident on what I want/need. If I find something that appeals to me in every sense then I would be willing to pry open the wallet a bit more. Big kudos to you guys for being so helpful!

I have already purchased TNF Talus 2. http://www.rei.com/product/864016/the-north-face-talus-2-tent
I understand that it may not be the worlds best tent. But overall it seemed to fit what we needed. We have yet to take it out on a trip yet but once we do I shall leave a review on it.
I will aslo bring my dog along some trips (85lb bloodhound). So this tent is perfect for trips like that. Eventually once I have a bit more confidence in what I am doing I will invest in a better system.

You've gotten some great advice here. Just to add, in case it isn't obvious, a quilt can give you a lot more room inside, which is a pro if you toss-and-turn or otherwise like to spread arms and legs akimbo, but as a con it leaves more air space that your body has to keep heated. A quilt can be cinched tighter around you when it's cold and loosened for when it's warmer and/or you want the elbow room.

Especially with an air mattress, it feels more like sleeping in a bed under a blanket.

Brendan,

I think that you will find that there is a "natural" evolution when going UL/Lightweight.

You buy the gear that is readily available to you via the named brands, which there is nothing wrong with them.

Then you research like crazy on a site like this and read enough reviews on gear where you probably could write a book.

You will reach out to the BPL community and ask questions and find out what works best for YOU.

Part of this might involve you thinking about how your operate, how you like to sleep (on your back, on your side, active sleeping- tossing and turning), how you like to eat (hot or cold food…how many hot meals a day), what type of places you are going to be traveling to….wet, dry, hot, or cold.

If you spend a little time thinking about these, you can make better gear choices to dial in what is going to be best for you.

UL/Lightweight hiking, to me, is nothing more than hyper specialization to save weight.

Rather than having on 20F sleeping bag for all year round…the lightweight backpacker might have two or three….30F, 15F, 40F??? Or a 30F quilt that can more easily vent heat and therefore regulate temperatures.

There will be some trail and error, but hopefully with the advice that you get here, you can limit the number of times you might re-buy gear as you move from something traditional to lightweight cottage made gear.

Hard part is that it is not easy to get your hands on these before you buy.

I think you will find that many of the cottage manufactures will have generous return/exchange policies.

Better yet, you can likely call the cottage manufactures and talk to the owner's directly to get input and advice from them about what is going to be best for your style/needs.

That said, I do agree with one of the earlier posters about considering spending the extra money for a high quality/lightweight down sleeping bag or quilt.

A good one will be one of the most expensive items that you will buy, but they can last for 10 years or more with careful care and uncompressed storage.

For me, I went from Marmot sleeping bags ($420 15F Helium EQ) to a Marmot 40F bag, then a Jacks R Better Quilt, which was a fine value quilt to "try out the whole quilt thingy", and just last month dropped money on a Katabatic quilt for big bucks, but I think that my journey has ended there.

Now, had I taken the leap of faith early on that quilts were the way to go, I could have saved money.

Same leap of faith when I went from a tent to a Tarp and Bivy.

So enjoy the journey and research gear porn, geekdom…..we have all been there.

Lucky for you, there is a wealth of knowledge from the BPL community to help narrow down your choices.

Good luck.

Tony

I think you made the right choice on the tent.
A double wall tent ensures your GF has good experiences if there is rain, winds, or a condensation prone tent site. Yes – you can avoid any problems with good technique and tent site selection. But there is a lot to be said you getting new backpackers hooked on the fun, and letting them increase their skills and comfort zone – before going to the methods that require more skill and proper site choices.

For the same reason, I recommend a mummy bag. It's snuggly warm, and fool proof.
I also contend that the theory that down below you is wasted weight is wrong.
Sure – the part your hip and knee and shoulder blades are on top off is wasted weight.
But the parts between those areas fluffs up a little and cradles your legs and torso in warmth. Try laying on top of your bed at home. If you lay on top of your puffy quilt / blankets, you'll see what I mean. Later, after you get more experience, you can use the sleeping bag completely unzipped like a quilt to see what you think. Quilts ARE the way to go if you want to vary the amount of clothing you wear to bed dramatically depending on the temperature.

Also, I recommend a 650 down bag from marmot or another name brand. They are warmer and more compressible than synthetic bags, and the 650 down fill is very cheap compared to 850 fill down. Just a tiny bit more expensive than synthetic bags. Kelty makes some very cheap down bags – just be aware that they are not nearly as warm as name brand bags. Ie: their 30 degree bag is really a 45 degree bag.

I say you can get a great bag off ebay for $200.00 that fit your parameters. They might be used, but some are in great condition and are an absolute bargain for the price. I noticed the quilt people are starting to sell their quilts there too whether it be an EE, Zpacks, or their own DIY versions. This girl cracked me up with her home made quilt which she claimed was far superior to any EE Quilt. Well if it was so superior, why is she selling it…….apparently she is making a quilt that is even better than her first one. Anyhow, good luck on your decision.

I found a "new" Golite Z30 Quilt for $235. This company is no longer around. What was the original price of this quilt? Should I try and get the quilt for a better price, or just buy a brand new EE?

The response from this forum has been overwhelming to say the least! I have much to learn and I have chosen a pretty good starting point.

For those of you who have recommended a double quilt. I like the idea, but I would rather have a separate sleeping system for when we do solo trips. Just a side note, when I mentioned I would be bringing my girlfriend along it seems there were a few responses to keeping her comfortable and content. Well she was born and raised in Japan for the first 10 years of her life and spent her summers in Glacier National, Montana. She is not your typical American girl by any means.

I really like the idea of a quilt opposed to a mummy bag. I am a pretty active sleeper and my body temp changes quite often. I am willing to take a "leap of faith" in buying a quilt, but I really do need a push to get me started.

Are any of the quilts better for a newbie? Easier to use, clean, take more abuse.

Just to add, the resale of cottage company gear is great on this forum. I have bought a few different items that ended up not working for me, and then resold them losing only about 5% of the purchase price. That said, I would recommend a quilt from EE. They have the most bang for the buck in my opinion.

Don't abuse your quilts. :)

It's a matter of features and weight. I like the quilts from Hammock Gear (he will customize as you wish, overstuff, snaps or zipper, etc.) but most of the folks here seem to like Enlightened Equipment. Then there's Jacks R Better – they have two person models as well. A lot of the quilt makers are also hammock folk, but that doesn't make their quilts any less appropriate for sleeping on a pad.

Don't sweat the folks who think girlfriends have to be sweet-talked into backpacking. Those of us who had to sweet talk boyfriends roll our eyes at them…. There's still this perceived gender skew that seems less and less true the longer I backpack. I'm teaching a class on backpacking this weekend to 30 women. :)

Since the quilts come in such a variety of options. Would it be wise to hold off on buying a quilt for another season or two? Maybe find a "cheap" bag and use it until I have a better idea of what I want for options with my quilt? Information overload at this point!

Why not just buy one and see how you like it? Get a 20deg EE Rev. If you dont like it, sell it on gear swap. No sense in throwing good money away on some heavy old bag for one season.

Quilts are something you sort of have to decide to try for yourself. I have a quilt that I use sometimes, and sometimes I use a bag. Don't feel pressured to try a quilt if you are unsure- that could be a big waste of money. Some people absolutely hate them. You need to be a disciplined sleeper to use one in very cold conditions. If you aren't careful pretty soon the gram weenies and fanatics will have to cutting the tags out of your clothes and sawing your toothbrush in half.

In your price range down bags that are reasonably light are rare. It seems to be traditional to recommend the Kelty Cosmic Down 20 for that price point. 2-lbs 11-oz for a 20 degree bag isn't too ridiculous. A buddy of mine has one and is quite happy with it.

But if as you as you're interested in quilts, I'd say go ahead and try it. I went kind of ghetto, myself- I like JRB. I just can't bring myself to spend that much on a Kabatic.

Brendan,

My advice is not to take the half steps, which I think will ultimately cost your more money by buying multiple sleeping bags/quilts til you get to the ONE that works for YOU.

In my mind, you have two main choices for quilts, but there are many other manufactures out there who make good products:

http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/

Enlightened Equipment, which I have never owned, but they have a great reputation for quality and value.

http://katabaticgear.com/

Katabatic Gear, which I own two of their quilts…the 22F (bought used on BPL) & 30F (bought new so my girl friend can use my 22F). For me, Katabatic gear is the best, but is expensive.

Reviews:

http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Ultralight-Sleeping-Bag-Reviews/Katabatic-Gear-Palisade

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/katabatic_sawatch_quilt_crestone_hood_review.html#.VO4XVPnF_HU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYynyvY-wVs

Admittedly, if you are a back sleeper, the Katabatic has a lot to offer…maybe perfect at keeping out the drafts and keeping warm.

If you are an active sleeper….still works too.

Things I like that others might not have:

1. Draft Collar around the neck and chest to keep the warmth in

2. Neck snaps that keeps the quilt firmly around your neck and shoulders to prevents cold shoulders, which was my biggest complaint with my Jacks R Better, value quilt

3. Elastic edges on the side of the quilt to help snug the bottom edges closer to your body

4. Pad attachment system that is adjustable in two ways to keep the edges close to your body, which can eliminate drafts that result from your moving around.

(I use a close cell foam pad that is 1/4" wide, sometimes 1/8" wide, so this pad attachment features is not much of a value for me).

Note: In general, I find that when I use a bivy bag as a shelter, it helps with the over issues of having a draft with a quilt, as I am in a very confined space. Being in a tent, the draft issue would be a bigger factor with the great air space and movement of air in a tent. (Again, knowing what YOUR specifics of how you camp/sleep with determine if some of these features matters to YOU).

I find that these 4 aspects of the Katabatic quilt makes them stand out and translates to a lot of warmth for the weight for me.

The down side is that they are expensive vs. many other out there.

For me, the 1-3 features has solved all the issues that I had with my JRB quilt and I don't think that I will be wanting for something better or different…thought I admit that I am very curious about the two person quilts that Enlightened Gear makes. (See what happens when you meet a woman who is silly enough to follow you into the woods??? The desire to buy more gear vs. sticking with my perfected solo/hermit/monk setup!).

Hopefully this will give you some help in breaking down your choices or aiding you in your research.

The leap of faith will be if you are okay with sleeping with a quilt.

I find it more "natural" in that it is like sleeping at home with a blanket, though it was kinda weird, at first, to find myself sleeping directly on my foam pad…just felt "funny".

If you are lucky, maybe there will be a Gathering of Gear Geeks event near where you live and you can hook up with other BPLers and get a chance to get your hands on a quilt and quickly try it out to see if it might work for you.

Tony

That Tent is a good one but heavy. Eventually you might want to check out Big Sky International. One of their 2 person tents would shave 1-2#.

I think it is the Revolution tent that is exoskeleton and has a removable inner tent. With a dog you may want to look into a Teepee style tent with a removable half inner tent that has a huge vestibule for the dog.

As far as quilts, this is my opinion and some guessing.
If your girlfriend has never used a quilt, she might prefer a bag she can zip up in.

Also if you sleep on your back like you are in a coffin then I think a zipped up bag is warmer. If you are a side, stomach or flip flop sleeper a quilt is more comfortable, since you are not constantly fighting with the hood but as you move you can pump in cold air.

If you go quilt, I would imagine you would want a pad sheet of sorts for the girlfriend to make it more comfy so you are not sleeping right on the pad.

All in all you are not going to know until you try one.

Sierra designs makes a quilt, and if it were me, I would buy a bag and a quilt from someplace that has easy returns and try them out and let her try them out and send back the one you dont want or both. The Sierra quilt is nice, but too heavy for what it is so you might want to return it regardless.

Brendan,

Troy makes a good point about sleeping bags vs. quilts.

In many ways, a sleeping bag can be more effective at retaining heat because you are wrapped up completely…mummy style.

The weakness of the quilt is that air/warmth is able to escape anywhere there is a leak: the edges and the top of the shoulders and neck.

The weight advantage is that if you are able to limit or prevent those leaks, then you have more of the down/loft on top of your body vs. having some under you, which is compressed by your body and therefore provides little insulation value.

Warmth is a function of trapping air….loft, the thickness of the insulation on your body can provide more warmth or loss of body heat.

The quilt tries to put all of the down/loft on top of your body to trap that heat, therefore giving you the possibility of less weight for the equivalent weight of a mummy bag.

Again, knowing how you sleep (active sleeper/tossing and turning vs. back sleeper with no movement) will help you decide which might be better for you.

Better design features in a quilt can help limit the loss of heat.

Anyway, wanted to provide you this information, in case you did not know what the differences were between sleeping bags or quilts.

Tony