0f bag requirement for AMC training courses in white mountains, NH

[Kodiak Firesmith]

I’m facing a requirement to pack a 0f sleeping bag for any fall/winter/spring outings with AMC, and have never owned anything lower than a 30f quilt.

I’m concerned about the high probability of extremely wet cold weather in the Whites, which has me over the deep end looking at synthetic 0f mummy bags that weigh ~4lb.

I’m new to the area, new to colder weather camping, and relatively inexperienced as a backpacker, so I could use some help figuring out if I can safely go with down to save weight and volume or if I should be going synthetic.

I currently have a 30f EE Revelation down, 30f EE Revelation apex synthetic, and a 40F EE Revelation apex synthetic, and EE apex hood.  Part of me wants to try to get away with layering the 30f apex over the 30f down quilts, but I don’t want to freeze.

Current synthetic front runner would be the brand new Mountain Hardwear 0f Lamina that is a complete change in materials and states 4lb2oz.

Any advice from folks who spend time in the Whites, or do AMC courses, etc would be appreciated.

[Kodiak Firesmith]

Forgot to mention, I’ll be using this with a silnylon Tarptent Notch, 2014 vintage, mesh walls.

[Bruce Tolley]

I would defer to folks with more specific experience with the AMC and the Whites, specifically the teachers of the course.

But if this were a course in the Sierra Nevada, I would recommend renting or borrowing a 0 degree down bag for the first session.

A synthetic 0 degree bag will fill up 1/3 or more of a 60 liter pack.  So option B would be to rent a pack and a zero degree syn bag.

But once you have the first overnight and know how to keep warm, with some experimentation you could combine some of the gear you already own.  You might ask the course teachers if combining two 30 degree quilts would work.

I personally do not use my quilt once the temps drop below 30 degrees since the cold drafts wake me up when I turn at night.

The ideal combination would be a 0 or 15  degree down mummy bag with synthetic overquilt.

And as always your pad system is essential to staying warm. I combine a closed cell pad with an inflatable NeoAir.

Ryan Jordan and other has written several BPL articles about lightweight winter camping going back to 2007 or 2008. The recent ones are on the website’s table of contents. The older ones can be found with the search function.

[Monte Masterson]

When it comes to winter backpacking in the White Mountains Philip Werner of sectionhiker is a storehouse of information. He lives in NH and does lots of cold weather trips throughout the Granite State. Knows his stuff. Not only gear reviews on just about everything but also has tons of articles about the philosophy and technique of winter backpacking. https://sectionhiker.com/

Western Mountaineering Antelope or Feathered Friends equivalent is probably going to be best bag choice.

Montbell offers a 0 degree synthetic bag but it weighs 4.5 lbs. https://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=14003&p_id=1121423

[Iago Vazquez]

I have no experience with the AMC courses, but recreate in the Whites often, including winter. I personally would be warm enough at 0F layering the two EE 30F quilts. So if you find that the 30F rating in the EE quilts is warm enough for you at 30F, then I’m sure that layering will work for you as long as drafts are managed.

I say this because I have found that EN ratings do not work for everyone. EN ratings work well for me, but they are nowhere near the insulation that a nephew of mine and another friend need when out camping.

Another issue you are dealing with is regulations. Reach out to the AMC and discuss with them the fact that you intend to layer the two quilts. The quilts should be warm enough paired with the hood, but the AMC may be “inflexible” about the 0F bag.

[Bruce Tolley]

@ Kodiak

Where are you currently living?  You could watch the weather forecast and and if you have a backyard, test out layering the 2 quilts on the coldest upcoming night.  If they don’t keep you warm at 10 degrees, they wont keep you warm and minus 5 F. For our winter snow camping Sierra Club course in California we also suggest folks on a budget look at sleeping bag liners and bivy sacks.  The manufacturers often claim a liner or a bivy sack adds 10 degrees which seems an extreme exaggeration in my experience. But a bivy sack can cut down drafts and mitigate heat loss from wind moving at ground level.

[Sam Farrington]

There have been some deaths in the Presidentials in the White Mountains this year, primarily due to heavy snow, rain, the cold and high winds, and usually involving solo hikers.  So I think you are very smart to go with a group, and agree that you should contact the sponsor for more specific information concerning the choice of sleeping bag.  T’wer me, I would not go up there with anything less than high loft down, sealed inside a sturdy waterproof inner sack inside the stuff sack.  The weather has been awful this winter close to sea level, and cannot imagine what it’s been at altitude.  Things will probably improve as we get into Spring, which is right around the corner. Sam Farrington, Chocorua, NH.

 

[Kodiak Firesmith]

Thanks everyone so much for their input.  I’ve also corresponded with folks at AMC.

I think I’ll be getting either the WM Versalite 10f, or the WM Badger 15f.

I’m torn between the two due to the better condensation management of the Badger being microfiber rather than the extremelite 12d fabric of the Versalite.

I’m at about 40′ from sea level in Cape Cod which most of the time makes for a poor testing ground for NH shoulder season conditions.

My primary concern about the Versalite would be wet conditions in NH – I’ll be in a Tarptent Notch w/ mesh walls or a Sierra Designs Convert 2 winter tent.  I may be overly worried about condensation, coming from a lack of experience with colder weather camping and with the Northeast.

[baja bob]

Use your 40 degree Apex quilt with one of those bags and you have your condensation management and legit 0 degree capability.

[Bruce Tolley]

RE; Microfiber condensation management

In my experience in the Pacific West, the condensation to worry about especially on longer trips is the water vapor from your body condensing before it gets to the outside surface of your bag.

I have no experience with the microfiber on WM bags but it would seem that that feature is to mitigate moisture from condensation from ambient air getting your down wet and the MF might hinder the moisture coming from your perspiration and respiration from leaving the bag.

[Monte Masterson]

Western Mountaineering claims the 20D microfiber breathes better than the 12D extremelite, which I find surprising. Of course the MF is more water resistant as well.

Only problem with the Badger is that unless you’re a big guy and/or plan on sleeping with lots of extra layers the 65″/56″ (shoulder/hip) might be too large and inefficient for you. The Antelope measures 62″/53″ with 3 oz more down and has a 5 degree rating instead of 15 degrees. You might end up wishing you had the warmer bag.

[David Sugeno]

I think I’ll be getting either the WM Versalite 10f, or the WM Badger 15f.

Use your 40 degree Apex quilt with one of those bags and you have your condensation management and legit 0 degree capability.

Versalite with your Apex quilt is what I was going to suggest.  I camp mostly in drier climes, but I’ve taken my Versalite down to about 5F, and been very comfortable.  Quilt would add some buffer against colder temps, and would help with moisture management.  The Versalite is a truly amazing bag, IMHO.

[bradmacmt]

I came of age backpacking year-round in the White Mountains. This was the 1970’s, and besides Spring, Summer, and Fall, I did a number of Winter trips in the Presidentials where I have fond memories sleeping out in the open at -10*F and summiting various peaks on clear cold days below zero.

I have a Versalite, and it’s a good bag. Unless you’re a big guy, I’d absolutely NOT get the Badger. It’s just too roomy, and you’ll expend a lot of energy trying to keep its interior warm. Personally, for winter in the Whites I’d want more than the Versalite if used alone (definitely get overfill whatever you get – free from Hermits Hut). A VBL for the inside of your Versalite to keep body moisture from freezing in the outer layers of your bag is a must for down bags used below zero, and it will add warmth. Also, a quilt would help extend your bags warmth below zero. So yes, the Versalite with a VBL and outer bag (in your case, a quilt) will definitely work.  A specialized sub zero bag is ideal, but will be abysmal in warmer temps, so better to layer a good 4 season bag like the Versalite if you can’t afford a quiver of bags. Another WM bag I’ve had is the Antelope which is another solid choice.

[Dan Quixote]

Not sure how big you are, but the REI Magma 15 in womens has a lot of down in it, more than the mens because women tend to sleep colder (one of the few items where the women’s version is better). I was eyeing the WM Versalite last fall and got the Magma on sale for about $400 less than I could have gotten the Versalite, though it’s not as premium in quality.

Only have a couple nights in it so far personally so I can’t give much feedback on it.

[Kodiak Firesmith]

Thanks everyone again for their input.  It turned out that I had a long forgotten credit with an etailer that sells WM bags, so I went ahead and bit the bullet on a Versalite 10, right hand zip, 6’6″.

I called WM with some pre-purchase questions specific to New England climate etc, and they referred me to a local retailer that sells a lot of WM, International Mountain Equipment of New Hampshire.  The person I spoke with was a wealth of knowledge and helped me be sure I knew what the pros and cons would be for the Versalite in this region, which tracks with a lot of what you folks also said.

Hopefully I’ll have the bag in the next week or so and get a chance to test it locally on some cold nights.

[Bruce Tolley]

You cannot go wrong with a WM bag. The one local retailer here in San Jose, CA near the WM headquarters sold their real estate and retired.:-((

Write a trip report for us about your AMC outing.

[Kodiak Firesmith]

Absolutely!  I’ve got SOLO Wilderness First Aid certification coming up in early April, and a 2 day land nav course up in Cardigan Mountain end of April.

Hoping to find some potential backpacking partners at those courses as it’s been tough as a new transplant to the area.  I’ll start chipping away at the NH48 this summer but my wife doesn’t want me doing any of that solo, ha!

[Eric Blanche]

I know you may have you mind made up already, with I’m sure solid advice from WM and IME, but thought I would throw in a few last min comments/opinions.

I use a WM Antelope +3oz overfill for New England winters and it has never let me down. There have been many nights where a 15* bag would not be suitable for me. The microfiber shell is top quality and very decent with water resistance.

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