Yet another story of Ultra 200 delamination after a PCT thru

[Murali C]

This is from a PCT thru hiker who used a KS Ultralight in Ultra 200 fabric. Looks like he took good care of his gear from the pictures. This was posted on reddit.

Post PCT Gear Review – The Lot from Ultralight

pictures:

View post on imgur.com

I know somebody said Ultra 400 was more prone to delamination than Ultra 200 and they were fixing Ultra 400. But this is Ultra 200 and the delamination occurred at seams as well as in the center where there are no seams. The outside of the pack is good apparently. Just another data point. This guy also put his bear can on top – not inside his backpack.

[Robert Spencer]

I probably won’t embark on a PCT type hike anytime soon, but I’d like to think these new pack materials would not show that much wear that quickly. Again, 2500 miles is a lot of outings for an average backpacker.

What about all the testing and the stellar results? Does the real-world trump controlled test data? Does pack construction and layout make the difference?

[John K]

Looks alot like my sails after a few seasons of racing. 😒

[Brad Rogers]

With two kids playing sports year-round I’ve not been able to get out more than a week or so a year lately, so I’m still rocking a 210d Dyneema Grid pack with no signs of wearing it out any time soon.   Ultra 200 looked like the perfect pack material to replace not only Dyneema Grid, but X-Pac, and Hybrid DCF too, but perhaps it’s not all it’s cracked up to be.   I guess time will tell.

[Dan]

Oh, well … apparently it survived the hike and didn’t cause any problems. He just noticed it afterwards. Not sure what one is expecting from such lightweight gear.

[YoPrawn]

Realistically, how many people put that many miles on a backpack? Even backpacking that many miles in their life?

I was born in the 1970’s, and I don’t think I’ve multi-day backpacked even 1,500 miles in my whole life due to finances and disabilities limiting my distances. I’ve day-hiked way more miles than that, but not with a heavy backpack for overnights.

If this pack lasted this person 2,500 miles, I could buy it and use it for the rest of my life, in theory. :)

[Murali C]

There was another guy on the PCT who had a Ultra that had a tear near his hip belt or something like that – according to this poster on reddit.

Well…it is the broken promise of Ultra being that awesome fabric or shall we say marketing promises! And the speed with which everyone has switched to this fabric. Sure this is a new fabric and they will tweak it and fix it – they are already talking about adding an inner scrim layer like Xpac VX fabrics.

Xpac or DCF will survive a PCT thru without delamination.

Both Xpac and DCF are being discontinued by most manufacturers for Ultra and other fabrics released by Challenge which I feel is a tragedy. I hope pack manufacturers keep offering Xpac and DCF backpacks.

Of course people have been putting 6000 to 8000 miles on good old 210d nylon without any issues.

Even if you may not reach the 2500 mile mark or whatever because you dont’ backpack much, would you not want a fabric which you know will not delaminate? If Ultra was cheap – sure, I will take an Ultra backpack knowing it will delaminate at some point.  But it is not. It is being marketed as being the best of the best etc.

[Justin W]

Ultra fabrics are a blend of UHMPWE and polyester. UHMWPE fabrics/fibers are very hard to bond to unless they are specially treated to alter the surface of the material.  For example, the UHMWPE in DCF, I believe, is treated with a cold plasma treatment to make it more bondable to the mylar film. Plus, structurally, there is free surface area for the mylar films to bond to each other since the amount of UHMWPE fibers within same is not high enough to block all of it.

I’m wondering if the manufacturers of Ultra are relying on the polyester fibers in the weave for the bonding (rather than also treating the UHMWPE)?  If so, this would significantly weaken the overall bonding strength and durability.  By how much or little would depend on the ratio of polyester fiber content to UHMWPE fiber content.  But even a relative small amount of the latter would introduce potential fail areas (again, unless specially treated before hand).

[HkNewman]

2500 miles is a lot of outings

Yes I’ve seen other “UL” type fabric’s delaminate or otherwise start coming apart in Northern Oregon.

..DCF will survive a PCT thru without delamination

Actually seen DCF hybrid delaminate after ~2,000 miles. Some probably due to users going in and out of the pack a lot more than others (whose same fabric at the same mile was still visibly intact).

More the fabric than the pack, but over 2500 miles in direct sunlight..

Could add a pseudo-lid of some sort made of a cheaper, yet more rugged fabric IMHO.   Something between MLDs add on lid>Gossamer Gear’s lid system that could carry a headlamp or other items needed in trail.

[Murali C]

I was doing a SOBO section hike of PCT Washington and met several folks with HMG backpacks. I was carrying a HMG 3400 black. I was amazed to see black HMG packs as good as new in Washington NOBO thru hikers. White ones were dirty – but otherwise in great condition. I actually was searching Google for DCF delamination stories – didn’t see any :-) Here are some reviews of folks who have done PCT thru fr0m reddit. The delam on Ultra doesn’t appear to be on the roll top?? I thought it looked in the middle somewhere….

sirthunderfluff
·5 yr. ago
I have the 2400 Windrider in white and used it for 160+ contiguous days on the PCT last year. No holes, rips, tears, loose seams. Anecdotal, sure, but real world testing.

I’ve seen other 2400 black models on the PCT that looked pretty new yet by the end of a thru hike, at least compared to my white model.

I now also have the 2400 Southwest in black, which I’m told is slightly tougher material, and will be using it SoBo on the AT in June.
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level 2wernerphilip
·5 yr. ago
I have a 2400 Southwest in White. Probably has about 2500 miles on it. Some abrasion on the dyneema grid hip belt pockets from bushwhacking – fixed with polyurethane. Otherwise the pack pad is worn, discolored, soft, but no rips or punctures at all. Some abrasion on the bottom but no holes yet. Not even close. I’ve owned a lot of UL packs and the 2400 has lasted the longest and been abused the most.
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level 2cavaleir
·5 yr. ago
Chiming in, also used a 2400 Windrider in white on the PCT last year. Super durable. The only issue is one of the shoulder straps is very slightly coming apart at the stitching connecting it to the pack, but it’s not much and I’d be confident enough to use it for another thru.

[Link .]

Here is somebody that doesn’t like DCF packs either and says they breakdown and shrink Backpacking Gear I’m OVER in 2020  he talks about starting at about 6 min and 40 sec in

[Murali C]

Ah – good old Darwin. But I do agree that Xpac is hardier than DCF mostly. Most folks don’t know that HMG white is actually 3.5 osy and black is 5 osy while Zpacks and most others use 2.92 osy. So what Darwin used was slightly lower durability than what HMG uses. 3.5 osy DCF has the same number of dyneema fibers as 5 osy DCF. MLD also used to use 3.5 osy DCF for some time.

Zpacks used to use DCF for hip belts as well I think which was an odd choice I thought as their hip belt touches the ground a lot more than other companies whose belts are a little higher compared to the bottom. Also I feel their arc which actually causes lots of tension on fabric and webbings is another way fabric stresses compared to other packs which don’t have those same stresses.

[Jon Solomon]

I wonder how much of this depends on climate and use? In Taiwan, where it is very wet, I heard about X-Pac delamination.

Challenge also makes Ultragrid, basically a dyneema gridstop fabric using recycled nylon. Maybe a better choice if it’s less expensive and greener.

[George W]

If a pack that is designed to be very light makes it through the entire hike and has a bit of wear that had no affect on how it performed, I’d say it did exactly what it was designed to do.

[HkNewman]

My foreign sewn ultraweave pack is showing a bit of delam at the top at 300 miles (note use a folded thinfoam as an inner-frame) but using a nyloflume liner to safeguard my stuff to keep dry.   Meh.  With water carrying sometimes, I’ve had to tighten and loosen the sternum strap, so maybe some excess stress? Actually will semi-retire said pack but not into black summer packs usually.

So will be delving into the discussion and asking do I want a pack that’ll last ..  or the latest design?

..VX…

Well could be an option.  Could use an externally tied on section of foam mattress to guard against sweaty back contact too (and act as a pseudo-frame).

[SIMULACRA]

Anybody come across articles or first hand experiences of HMG fully woven Dyneema DCHW fabric delaminating?  eg: Northrim. I’m also interested in the long term exterior wear. Does the fabric weave start to “feather” over time? Does the fabrics “slipperiness” cause water bottles to easily slip out? I couldn’t find a thing relating specifically and I dug down the rabbit hole. Hardly a review that the product hadn’t been supplied to the reviewer for the review. I did come across mentions in obscure outdoor forums talking about other companies fabrics ie: Alpine Luddites, Cilo Gear, with head nods to HMG DCHW. But that’s it.

[Terran Terran]

Ten year old HMG Porter.

[SIMULACRA]

Cheers Terran, that’s in excellent shape! Has there been any issues with the inside laminate? Did you rig custom Hardline and mesh side pockets? Great idea. It’s a shame you can’t custom order DCHW fabric with HMG anymore.

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

Do they have to laminate the material? I don’t think I’ve ever had laminated material that didn’t delaminate at least a little bit at some point.

[SIMULACRA]

I agree Piper. I was wanting to get a baseline for what to expect with HMG’s hybrid woven before buying.

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