windshirt inside or outside of down puffy?

[J R]

When wearing both a windshirt and a down puffy, which do you layer inside and which outside?

Most of what I’ve seen people say they do is wear the windshirt inside, but that doesn’t make as much sense to me as wearing the windshirt on the outside. My reasoning is that, first off, I assume I’m wearing the windshirt because of wind, and I’d rather block the wind from stealing heat from the down puffy so that the down can do its job well. If the windshirt is on the inside then you still get a layering effect for insulation but the down is vulnerable to having heat drawn out of it by a cold wind. This has been my actual experience in trying it both ways.

The argument I‘ve seen most for wearing the windshirt inside is that if it is outside then it can compress the down (depending on how tight the fit), but even though my windshirt is snug on the outside of my down puffy I just don’t see any meaningful compression that should hurt the insulating value of the down.

What say you?

[Brad Rogers]

For warmth outside.  However my windshirt is too small to put on over my puffy so IF I wear my windshirt in camp I put it under my puffy.

In the mornings I wear it under my puffy but over my hiking clothes as when I am ready to go I just pull my puffy off and a ready to go.  I often start out hiking in my windshirt in the cool mornings before the sun hits me.

[Dean F.]

Where on Earth are you reading to wear the wind jacket inside the down jacket? That’s bizarre. Outside. (Situational exceptions as Brad mentioned.)

[Paul S.]

If your wind shirt is sized to fit over, then it will add additional warmth in a typical sown through baffle design.  A wind shirt isn’t going to make a difference if you really need an extra ounce of down in your puffy.  I think for most people adding a puffy at rest provides plenty of warmth.  If you find your puffy isn’t warm enough then a fleece mid layer or more down is in order.

Most people use a wind shirt when active and a puffy when at rest and layer in that order.  The wind shirt also helps block sweat from hitting the down, which is more important an a bit extra wind resistance.

 

[Roger Cocchi]

Definitely the wind shirt should be worn on the outside, assuming that it fits.  This way the warm air trapped in the puffy remains inside the wind shirt against your body to keep you warm.

[Ian]

For me, I benefit (and likely shorten my life expectancy) from natural insulation so I run pretty warm, but this was also true when I was scrawny.  As recently as a couple weeks ago, wearing a medium weight base layer, wind shirt, and soft shell vest was more than enough to keep me warm down to 0*F.  If I tried to hike with a puffy on, I’d overheat in pretty short order.  I do carry one for when I stop moving, and I normally just throw it on over whatever I happen to be wearing during my hike, whether that be a wind shirt or hard shell.  Once it’s time to get moving, back in the pack it goes.

I suppose that if the temps were dipping well below 0*F and I needed to hike with a down jacket on, I’d hike with the wind shirt over the puffy.

[Nick Gatel]

This was a cold and windy morning.

I feel this was the most efficient and lightest clothing set up of our group. Tank top synthetic base layer, wind shirt, down vest. Bottoms are Cap 1 and Baggies shorts. It would have been too warm with the wind shirt over the vest. My wind shirt is purposely sized to fit over a down vest or light down jacket if needed.

An hour later it was warm enough to take off the vest. Two hours later is was warm enough to take off the wind shirt and Cap 1 bottoms. Normally in cold weather it makes more sense to wear fleece under a wind shirt while on the move. I can’t remember any trip where I needed to wear a wind shell over a down layer while hiking. In camp at night, yes.

On this trip I needed the vest to supplement my quilt. It is also why my base weight was nearly 1/2 of everyone else, except for BPL member Andy Duncan who took the picture, because every single item in my pack was perfectly matched for the conditions and nothing unnecessary was brought, other than a liter of wine. I was the only one without a shelter, and I was fine despite the 50 mph wind gusts that plagued us during the night. There were 5 of us on this trip. The two guys with single wall UL tents had them collapse. The other two were cuben tarps that were still standing in the morning. I went to bed with the wind shirt and vest as a pillow. When it got unexpectedly cold, I slept with the vest under the wind shirt, this was planned in case it cold colder than forecasted, which it did.

 

[James holden]

imagine yr climbing a technical belayed climb … 

• you arrive at the belay and want to put on yr poofay to keep you warm while yr partner comes up
• you take off your windshirt, losing heat in the blowing wind and risk dropping it
• dig yr poofay out of your pack and put it on
• and put back on the windshirt over the poofay
• and you need to reverse every action when putting it away

or you can simply

• put the poofay over yr windshirt and call it a day

the same applies when scrambling in high winds and with no cover … and other such examples

now in camp it doesnt matter as you can spend all day doing whatever you need

but for quick stops, belays, etc … theres this thing brits call FAFFing around

;)

[Jeff Jeff]

Baselayer and windshirt (or softshell) when active. Put a puffy on over the top for extended breaks. Then take the puffy off and start moving again.

In camp I just put the puffy on for about an hour between stopping and going to bed. The order doesn’t really matter there.

I’ve never had a down puffy on when moving.

[Jennifer Mitol]

i am also one who puts the puffy on over the wind shirt.  Because the puffy is usually on when I’ve stopped either for a break or in the am as I’m packing up – and I just want to take the puffy right off and get going.  In that case I keep the wind shirt on and don’t have to layer/unlayer so many things.

I think Michael Glavin of Sierra Designs actually started a thread a while back about using the wind shirt as a next-to-skin layer, with a fleece on top.  Someone tried that during a run and thought it was perfect…I was terribly intrigued by the idea that goes against conventional wisdom.  But then again, I really like ideas that buck conventional wisdom ;)

I can’t seem to find that thread now….anyone else remember that?

 

[Richard May]

It’s a shirt. When have you ever put a shirt over a jacket? :P

Okay. Under the puffy. As breathable as the shirt may be it still traps vapor. If you’ve stopped on a ridge or summit you are probably producing a lot. This kills down, especially if it’s trapped. Happened to me climbing Chirripó in Costa Rica.

If it’s under, the shirt acts as semi-permeable VBL. Thus protecting the down from the vapor and whatever gets through can evaporate.

[J R]

Thanks for all the input. My bad for not being clear about my question — I’m talking about in camp during 3-season use (sorry, I should have realized many would see this as asking about winter conditions and thus covering both rest and on-the-move). I understand the reasoning better for the windshirt under the down puffy in winter.

What I wasn’t clear in asking about is more during summer in the High Sierra or shoulder season here in the Southeast, when I will be fine in just my hiking shirt during the day then stop for camp, I cool down and the air does too so I want to pull on a down sweater, and it’s also windy so I’m feeling the wind through the down layer.

[Cayenne Redmonk]

My shell goes over puffy layers, my wind shirt is sized for an active layer.

Wind shirt on top is a non starter for me.

Are people *really* buying XL wind shirts for an outer layer ?

[Nick Gatel]

Are people *really* buying XL wind shirts for an outer layer ?

My Houdini fits well over my Ex UL Montebell down jacket or vest. No, it doesn’t fit over my winter jacket.

[James holden]

a properly sized windshirt should fit BOTH under and over a light down or synthetic poofay (2-4 oz of fill)

it should have minimal loose material which can flap in the wind or get caught on features/shrubbery

for climbing anyways excess material is dangerous as it can get stuck in yr gear (belay devices, carabiners, etc …)

;)

[Arapiles .]

Where on Earth are you reading to wear the windshirt inside the down jacket? That’s bizarre. Outside. (Situational exceptions as Brad mentioned.)

I’ve always done it that way.  Because the insulation comes off when I heat up and wearing it under is less bulky and restricts movement less.  And the wind shirt would have to be very oversized to go over a down insulation layer.  Yes, in theory it would be warmer the other way around but in practice putting it under makes more sense.

So, put it the other way – who would put a wind shirt over an insulation layer?

[Matt Dirksen]

“I cool down and the air does too so I want to pull on a down sweater, and it’s also windy so I’m feeling the wind through the down layer.”

If it is that cold & windy where the system is not keeping you warm enough, simply add your WP shell or Poncho over top of everything, as others have said.( I would assume a WP layer is a part of your kit – no doubt it should in the conditions you describe.)

Sure you could strip off your windshirt, throw your insulation underneath, and put it back on, but the you loose all your heat in the process.

But as Eric said, a properly sized windshirt ideally should be able to fit both over and under your ideally sized insulation, giving you maximum versatility. Also keep in mind that some lightweight down jackets might have enough inherent wind resistance in their shell to never need to go under another wind resistant layer.

So ultimately like many other questions regarding Best Practice with ideal gear: “It Depends…” is usually the right answer.

 

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

a properly sized windshirt ideally should be able to fit both over and under your ideally sized insulation

Well, the windshirt I have, fits me pretty good, but would not fit over my  puffy with 3,5 oz. down that also fits me pretty good. If I would size up, then perhaps it would indeed fit over my puffy, but it probably would be too big for me without puffy. So finding a windshirt that is properly sized and fits both, isn’t easy (to say the least).

[Mike M]

I concur- depends

on the move you certainly aren’t going to take off your windshirt, don your puffy re-don your windshirt only to repeat the process in reverse

at camp, yeah puffy then windshirt- if needed

my Houdini (actually Houdinis) fits well over most of my puffies save my dead of winter, cold as hell puffie

[Dean F.]

“So, put it the other way – who would put a wind shirt over an insulation layer?”

Oh, I dunno, someone who wants to be warm and use their cheap DWR wind jacket to protect their expensive, delicate and moisture-susceptible insulation layer? :)

Let’s not be disingenuous with “wind shirt.” Our nigh industry standard, the Patagonia Houdini, is a wind jacket. In fact, the only major hiking-oriented product that I can think of whose manufacturer calls it a shirt is the Marmot DriCLime. When we over-use the word “windshirt” it’s a colloquialism, and because we’re lazy and it’s one less syllable.
And, yes, your wind jacket should be sized to fit over a thin 3-season down puffy. Even if you don’t usually wear it that way it’s still frankly not somehow ‘over-sized’ to wear without the insulation, and it’s warmer that way in case you ever need it.

That being said, I guess I see the argument about wearing it underneath during exertion in very cold conditions in which insulation wetting from perspiration might be an issue. And, yes, for when you don’t need that much warmth- like leaving a jacket partially unzipped, you are intentionally reducing thermal efficiency. That’s all rather situational, though. Like I said, I guess. The more efficient general default, though, should be using the jacket as an outer shell. After all that’s what it is.

Look at it this way:

If the wind shell is doing anything for you when you wear it under the insulation, then almost by definition that means that the wind is blowing right through the insulation and the insulation isn’t doing it’s job. I.e. the insulation has not succeeded in sequestering warm air… because the wind is managing to blow through the insulation. Logically, that’s when you would wear a windshirt with your insulation layer- on the outside– when you think the wind is impairing the function of the insulation. By wearing the wind shell underneath all you’re really doing is adding a layer of nylon as very poor additional insulation. So if you’re expecting your wind shirt worn underneath to block wind then you have already ceded that your insulation layer is pointless.

Usually, though, an insulated jacket will work ok as it’s own wind blocker and you shouldn’t even need a wind jacket. The only benefit I see to wearing a windshirt underneath the insulation in this situation is if the insulation layer lacks coverage that the wind jacket provides, such as a hood, or sleeves when your insulation is a vest (see Nick’s photo above).

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

The way I am using it, is like this: at least a baselayer. Then, if it’s that windy on the move that ik makes me chilly or even cold, over the baselayer a windshirt. During rest stops and in camp, over those a puffy.

The puffy itself is already fairly windproof and should be as it uses a downproof fabric and the IDFL says that’s only the case if the air-permeability of the fabric is lower than 8 CFM.

So, practically for me, puffy over windshirt. Sure, windshirt over puffy will add a bit of warmth, but I’m looking for a practical system.

[Dean F.]

Woubeir-

Well, yes, that’s what I’ve said. You’re just wearing a baselayer and a wind jacket when hiking, really. Then for convenience you just throw a puffy over everything during stops when you get cold because you aren’t exercising. The puffy also blocks wind so you could take your wind jacket off first, but laziness and why bother packing the wind jacket if you’re just going to have to dig it out again when you resume hiking and take off the puffy. I grok- economy of motion. However, in doing this you are accepting that the wind jacket is really doing nothing for you while you’re wearing the puffy, unless it’s acting as a sort of half-assed VBL or something, which I have sort of granted.

But if you want the benefits of both the puffy and the wind jacket, it must be puffy under wind jacket.

Well. We’ve certainly touched off a bit of a religious war here, eh? I’m claiming “big-endian”. You jacket-under-puffy people are the “little-endians”.
:)

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Well, not exactly. The winshirt adds a tiny bit of warmth. If I need to take it off before putting the puffy on, that tiny bit of warmth will be swept away immediately. If I put on the puffy over the winshirt, the puffy will act as the biggest insulator but the windshirt will act also as a (very) thin insulator. If I would wear the windshirt over the puffy, the puffy will insulate me and my bodyheat from the windshirt which blocks then the wind and prevent the wind from compressing the puffy, making it a bit better at insulating and preventing to loose bodyheat, the same amount which I just lost by first taking off the windshirt to put on the puffy.

[James holden]

Folks if your windshirt cant go BOTH under and over a relatively thin pooofay, or a mid weight fleece … Then yr windshirt really doesnt fit u properly, or yr poofayz are poorly fitted

a properly fitting windhirt should not be loose, but neither should it have tight spots …

You should be able to put something like an atom lt under its and still have full range of motion without any effort

with so many different brands and options … Most folks should be able to find a good fit

however many times were fixated on a paticular brand or model, of the price itself and ignore the fit

for a simple test of if a windshirt fits … Next time yr at the store try it on with a thin poofay or mid weight flece under

Do some jumping jacks, stretches … The start chasing after folks making windmill motions with yr arms screaming “DEAD BIRD SO GUUD”

you should have full range of motion, the hem shouldnt ride up nor the sleeves pull down … no tight spots

and the windshirt should have minimal excess material with only a base layer under

when the cops come to arrest you simply tell em u drank too much stove alcohol

;)

 

[Kenneth Keating]

Interesting topic, it’s clear from the posts there’s different approaches depending on if one is trying to obtain maximum warmth, if one wants maximum convenience because maximum warmth is not required, or if one needs to take into consideration the amount of body moisture being released based what’s normal for him/her.  I had never really considered the variables in this.

K

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