Why am I so cold?!

[James holden]

bri …

using a dedicated hood that goes down to the shoulders and chest helps … but theres still a gap that can open if yr head moves enough while you sleep, nor is that gap closed unless you cinch the top cord snugly

and as you figured out, you need to use a quilt “perfectly” to hit the temp limits

in the “old BPL” days, questions on why their quilts felt “drafty” at temp limits were not uncommon … the common advice back then was to add a DWR bivy to prevent drafts (before wider quilts became popular)

roger ..

i believe that SD has something similar with their backcountry quilts,

interestingly enough with the new marmot hoods, it cinches down so that only your mouth and bottom of the nose is exposed … everything else including the face, eyes and nose top are covered and warm …

i think its fairly exciting that manufacturers can still eek out EN-ratings gains through design, rather than just adding more down or higher fill power …

it just goes to show that while more down and higher fill down is “better”, it isnt always everything

it also gives hope that as technology becomes more available that cottage manufacturers (and mainstream ones) can “optimize” their bags/quilts through design … im pretty sure marmot used some kind of thermal imaging or other such techno wizardry in their redesign …

;)

[Roger Caffin]

SD hoods, new Marmot hoods and EN ratings gains – sounds good to me!
Design improvements – should be no extra cost there.

Interestingly – I do have some padded hoods, but typically they turn out to be TOO warm for me. Fleece beanies…

Cheers

 

[Alex H]

“once you add up all the things to get a quilt to work at its temp limits (wide, straps, hood), there isnt too much of a savings over a sleeping bag weight or price wise”

Thank you eric

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Alex

I disagree. What a good quilt design has imho is much greater flexibility, and it IS more weight-effective. My 2c.

Cheers

 

[[ Drew ]]

Hi Alex

I disagree. What a good quilt design has imho is much greater flexibility, and it IS more weight-effective. My 2c.

Cheers

Quoted for truth.  Despite people saying that the weight difference is negligible when you add a hood and straps……it’s not.   High end sleeping bags are usually a lot more money than high end quilts, with the exception of Katabatic, usually.

 

[James holden]

lets do some apples to apples comparispm

EE Enigma 30F reg wide (to avoid drafts) 17.5 oz … 240$

EE Hooldum 1.5 oz … 50$

round up too ~20 oz with straps … 290$ US

Marmot hydrogen 30F (en rated for men to 24F) 24.5 oz … $329 regular price … with 20% off (if you cant find a 20% off coupon you dont deserve to be on BPL) $263

so the comparison is that the sleeping bag is ~30$ cheaper, ~4 oz heavier, and is actually en-tested to 6 deg warmer than the 30F rating (anyone here want to bet money on the EE testing to 24F?)

note the marmot isnt exactly the “lightest bag” either, it has an extra feature or two and uses 20d fabric, not to mention 800 fill .. its also a fairly WIDE bag at 61″ girth

quilts can be more “comfortable” for certain sleepers … but these days there is no real price advantage, nor is the weight advantage very significant …

not to mention that sleeping bags are “stupid easy” to use … how many folks here add “xtras” to make their quilts work at the temp limits (down booties for “open” footboxes, down puffies to prevent drafts, beanies, DWR bivies, etc …) … they never seem to add that weight into their calculations

and you can even find 40%+ off during sale season …

oh and theres no wait time … i hear thats up to 12-15 weeks at EE now …

;)

 

[James holden]

just to be fair …. lets also do a comparison against the “best” quilt

katabatic palisade 30F 850 FP reg/wide … 21.5 oz … 495$

windom hood 1.5 oz … 65$ …

total 23 oz … 560$

Marmot hydrogen 30F (en rated for men to 24F) 24.5 oz … $329 regular price … with 20% off (if you cant find a 20% off coupon you dont deserve to be on BPL) $263

so against the “best quality” 30F quilts the sleeping bag has a `1-2 oz weight gain, yet a 300$ savings …

and you can return the damn thing with free return shipping too

;)

[Bri W]

Just an update: I’ve gone camping and backpacking a few more times, experimenting with the various set-ups I can bring to the Sierras this July. I just hiked Kearsarge Pass and although it was sunny and 70°, the wind chill made me shiver and thus I had to hike in a lot of layers, including a down jacket. So that was a good experience to get an idea of what kind of environment I might be sleeping in this July. I found out that my mom has Reynaud’s, so it’s possible I just genetically run cold and have poor peripheral circulation. But I’m trying to sleep with the A/C on at home to adjust to colder sleeping temps. I also found a used 0° quilt that can be turned into a sleeping bag, and I’ll likely be selling my 20° Enigma soon, since the only time I’m comfortable in it is at high 50s° or warmer. Or I’ll keep it as my mid-summer camping quilt. The XTherm has substantially increased my warmth, and sleeping in looser wool BLs has also been a helpful suggestion. I may look into VBL socks/gloves for Fall and Winter camping/backpacking in the PNW, but I’m crossing my fingers this 0° quilt/bag will prevent me from being miserable during our summer High Sierra to Whitney adventure. I’ll add more updates as I test out the 0° quilt.

Thanks again! And if there are any other suggestions out there, I’m of course very appreciative!

 

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Bri

Experiment with a bit more mat insulation.That can work wonders.

Cheers

 

[Matt Swider]

I will add my 2 cents. I read a lot of this thread but not all of it.  I also sleep cold often.  I have been using a quilt for the past 8 months or so.  I have two of them. An EE revelation 30 degree and a Costco quilt made by A Sorensen. Both weigh about 1 pound. I don’t generally bring both but did on a snow trip earlier this year. I found I stay way warmer when I can cover my head with the Costco quilt.

Wearing a beanie is good but I think completely covering the neck and head keeps the body much warmer due to the high blood flow in these areas. The extra moisture in the quilt covering your face could easily be mitigated in the sierras with a bit of airing out during the day.

Btw I am also doing the HST starting in early August. Not sure of your itinerary but I highly recommend staying at Hamilton lake. My favorite spot along the trail.

Matt

[James holden]

bri …

as they say the BPL god is on the side of more down and high R-values … sometimes all the tricks in the world cant cover up a lack of insulation ..

matt …

being able to cover up you neck, and face adds substantially to the warm … if you look at how many good sleeping bags are made you will see that when pulled tight there is only a small hole for you mouth and perhaps nose … everything else is covered

to a certain degree one can do the same with one of the dedicated hoods from EE/zpacks …

covering up the neck is hugely important as major blood vessels run through there … and at lower temps youll need more than a jacket collar/hood

one trick if you use a quilt is to take your fleece and put it over your head … sure you breath will get the fleece damp, but itll fleece will laugh right back at you … this forms a warm pocket of air around you head …

breathing into down should be as a last resort as it get the down durty and youll need to wash it sooner

i think many folks underestimate how much heat loss there is through the head when everything else is covered ….

there was a myth that the army said 50% of heat loss is through the head regardless … what they really meant is that when the rest of the body is covered, 50% of the heat loss is through the head

you need as much insulation proportionally for the head/neck as the rest of the body

i think most folks tend to use quilts above their temp ratings or in milder conditions where one can get away with alot … once the temps drop below freezing and youre at the temp limits (adjusted for if you run warm/cold), you need to use everything perfectly and youll basically look like a mummy anywayz as per the EE pic i posted earlier

BPL and other such forums are littered with post on how to stay warm and avoid drafts with quilts

;)

[Matt Swider]

Hi Eric

I like the fleece idea.  I would not have guessed that down would get dirty due to breath but after consideration I can imagine that may happen.

I always disliked the feeling of a mummy bag and find a quilt strapped to my pad and sinched around my neck much easier to deal with. Adding the little blanket over my head would be perfect if it will stay in place.

I am wondering if Bri has tried this yet.

[Bri W]

I got a long quilt, since my short quilt always feels too short, despite the fact that I’m only 5’5″. I also use my hoodlum regularly. As long as my mouth and nose aren’t covered, I’m a big fan of my head and neck covered. The 0° quilt should arrive in a week or so, so I’ll test it out on my lawn on a colder night. It should be plenty long and warm enough to cover my head.

[Bri W]

Oh, I should also point out that I bought the 0° EE Epiphany Cuben quilt that was posted on the forums recently. From my understanding, this is essentially a VBL quilt. So if it keeps me warm, my next step will be to determine which base layers to wear.

[David L]

Eric, what quilts have you used, where, what temps, and what were your experiences?  How many bag nights with a quilt? Where do you backpack?

[James holden]

Hmmmmm david … At it again?

i have a 20F older 750 fill EE quilt which has seen around 100+ nights of use

its a fine quilt but some stitching is coming apart on some of the karo baffles so it needs a bit of repair … It works fine into the mid 20s but needs a good wash now as the loft is reduced due to dirt and oils

if your not happi with that i suggest you do personal arguments through PM

;)

 

 

 

 

[David L]

“i have a 20F older 750 fill EE quilt which has seen around 100+ nights of use”

I don’t think anyone believes that you have used a quilt in the backcountry whilst backpacking for over 100 nights.  Mostly because you don’t backpack.  You sure it wasn’t sleeping next to the car before a climb? I think you should answer my initial questions.

= = = = = = = = = = = =

Any more of this and I will be suspending posting rights. ENOUGH!

Roger Caffin
Backpacking Light

 

 

 

 

[James holden]

Ill let the mods deal with the above … thanks

anyways back to the discussion ….

Bri …

layering under a vbl will be an issue …. Usually one just wears base layers and perhaps a fleece

there will be somr sweat usually so keep the clothing minimal

if one has additional poofayz one can put em on top of the VBL

;)

 

 

 

 

;)

[Bri W]

I’m too new to this forum to understand what just happened. Anyway…

@eric chan thanks. Do you say a fleece because it’s not as warm as a down jacket, or because it stays warm when sweat is absorbed? Or maybe another reason? If it’s a warmer bag than expected, I may only need to bring my lightweight layers! That might save some weight.

[James holden]

Bri …

a fleece will absorb less moisture than down and dry much quicker …. It also looses less insulative abilities when damp

with a vbl youll tend to sweat if yr warm and unlike breathable fabrics that body vapor has nowhere to go

ita of critical importance that you wear as little as possible under a vbl, or plan for anything worn to get damp

being able to vent if you get too warm is the key with a vbl

if yr cold enough though you dont sweat significantly, but that basically means yr system is barely or not keeping you warm enough

ive used sol bivy sacks and more recently the blizzard bags … They are vbls, and youll get condensation inside

yiu can test this out be sleeing in a garbage bag at home

;)

[Jonathon Self]

That escalated quickly..

Back on topic. I don’t have much to add, but I just wanted to chime in and say that thread is a very interesting read. It shall be favorited and referenced at a later point. And Bri, I’m glad that things are getting warmer for you. :)

[Owen McMurrey]

Back, legs, and feet being cold spelled P-A-D to me from the start, and the fact that you still woke up cold at 40F with the XTherm and Thinlight isn’t encouraging.
I don’t really know what to make of these newer Thermarest mats. Makes sense that the less heat you generate, the less they have to reflect, though, and putting foam over it might just make things worse.
If you keep having problems even with the warmer quilt, it may be time to look at pads with more actual insulation instead of reflective material inside(the common denominator so far).

Being an extremely warm sleeper, I’m on the opposite end of things, and can comfortably use a 30F quilt at temps that are probably hard for most people to relate to, but don’t doubt one of the things that makes that possible is its being paired with an Exped Downmat UL7.
None of the “sleep strategies” like warm food, hydration or exercise before bed seems to make a bit of difference to me, but a couple(additional!) points of r-value underneath is huge when it drops much below freezing.

[Jennifer Mitol]

I agree with Owen…

If you need to hike in a puffy at 70 deg (+wind), then you obviously are not generating much heat.  Thus the xtherm may not be the best mat for you.  See if you can borrow something insulated (as I’ve mentioned a bit ad nauseum on other threads) the Exped Downmat UL7 is my absolutely favorite mat ever.  But if you don’t mind the mummy shape, the Exped Winterlite is a cheaper/equally warm option…you may need to actually go all the way to their downlight or whatever their winter pad is….

Pick one up from REI, sleep outside with it (protected, of course) then return it if it doesn’t make a marked difference.

I also thought PAD immediately from the start.  It makes SUCH a difference to me sleeping I can’t imagine it’s not at least some of your issue as well.

[Bri W]

So despite a high R value, the XTherm isn’t considered an insulated pad? Excuse my ignorance on this subject, but why is the UL7 a better 4-season pad than the XTherm? I think the XTherm has made a big difference in my warmth compared to the XLite. While I would prefer the weight of the XLite, the XTherm has been worth both the added warmth and comfort (I could NOT get comfortable with the XLite). I don’t think I’ve tested it in temps below 50° yet, though.

[Anonymous]

I didn’t read all the replies on here.  Did any one mention anemia at all?  It seems like a percentage of women tend towards the anemic and i’ve observed that the women that do, tend to run cold.  I did see the thyroid mentioned as well, and that’s also a somewhat common factor too, but if thyroid hormone levels are ok, then maybe upping iron (chelated form or from animal foods is best) and phosphorus levels (and easily absorbed/assimilated B12 like a co-enzyme form) will help to alleviate anemia.  Even if one isn’t diagnosed officially with anemia, it still might help to up these nutrients when you’re a woman.

Why would anemia affect coldness?  It affects basic oxygen utilization which is an important part of the whole, core metabolic process.  Anything that affects that, can affect internal temp.

On a side note, about thyroid: My spouse has donated eggs.  Before she could, she was extensively tested as to health.  It was found that her thyroid was weak and her thyroid hormone levels too low.  The doctor told her she would have to be on thyroid medicine (hormone replacement) the rest of her life, and get her levels normal to donate.  She said, i wanna talk to my husband first and do a little research. The doctor argued with her a bit.  After talking to her, i told her to start eating kelp regularly.

A few weeks or so when she went back to be re-tested, her thyroid levels were within normal range, which the MD didn’t understand, even after she explained she started to eat a moderate amount of kelp which has a lot of iodine.  As she had donated about 4 times after that first one (and tested each time before), it wasn’t some kind of one time fluke.

The Japanese, as a trend, get MUCH, MUCH more iodine than we do or our RDA as determined by the FDA, suggests.  Perhaps we should get more than they suggest and straight from food sources like the Japanese do?  I’ve noticed in my own case, that often (but not always) the body seems to like and better absorb nutrients directly from food than from more isolated and concentrated or synthetic sources.  (one exception seems to be co-enzyme form of B12 vs food source–some say that this is because hydrochloric acid is crucial to assimilation of same {through thorough and proper breaking down of the meat or protein laden animal foods that contain same], and that our crappy western diets have the effect to reduce our hydrochloric acid production over time as we age.)

[Author]

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