What did I do wrong?-Gear Choices Critique

[Ross Bleakney]

@Brad — I bought these: https://akgear.com/product/overmitts/. They aren’t cheap (obviously). They come in very big sizes and I initially bought a size that was too big. They are definitely designed for something thick underneath. I get out a lot in winter and these are great. I kind of with they used a draw string instead of velcro though (although it still works).

[Paul McLaughlin]

Here is what I would be wearing in that situation:

Alpha direct pants, with full zip eVent pants over those. Going uphill i usually have the zips open a ways, right down to the knees sometimes. Up top, echo hoody and kuiu peloton 97 hoody and windbreaker. Over me and my pack, a homemade mountain poncho a la Roger Caffin. On the hands , powerfleece liners under fleece mittens under eVent mitten shells. The sleeves on my poncho are long enough to cover my hands. The poncho is long enough to allow me to have pant side zips open down to mid thigh on the uphills. I might get all the way down to just the echo on the uphills, with the poncho over. Fleece beanie on top with ballcap over just for the bill. In the pack would be synthetic puffy for resting, and also full side zip synthetic puffy pants (just finished making those) for resting. I get cold when i stop walking. Probably one more mid layer, like a grid fleece.

I think the poncho is the key. Works far better for me than any jacket , keeps me drier, keeps the pack dry as well, I can have arms in the sleeves or not in the sleeves as it suits me. Unfortunately you can’t buy one, gotta make your own. Though you can buy a Packa, that would be close.

[David Gardner]

+1 on ponchos, especially the type that can easily be rigged up as a shelter. 10-12 oz of life insurance!

I had stopped using ponchos for the most part until 9 years ago, when I went on a camping to trip to the Sierra in October 2015 and rain forecast was 100%. Even though I was taking my heavy duty waterproof shell I threw my dino-tech PU nylon poncho into my pack at the last minute as backup, and I am really glad I did. It was sprinkling when our party of 4 started hiking and we had our rain shells on, and it turned into a steady downpour as we approached a ridge at treeline. At the ridge it turned into hard-driving wind and rain/sleet/snow was blasting us hard, turning the trail into a creek of ice and water, and lightning strikes were hitting less than a second away. My brother and his son tried pitching their 4P two-wall tent. While waiting I pulled out my poncho and put it over me and my pack and squatted down to minimize wind, and discovered that it was like sitting in a mini-tent with a bubble of warm, dry air around me. Unfortunately, in the 30-60 seconds between clipping the inner up to the poles and putting on the rain fly the tent turned into a bathtub and was useless, so we knew we had to bail. By now it was freakin’ cold with horizontal sleet and gale-force winds. My three compadres’ rain shells were all wetted out and they were suffering the initital stages of hypthermia, but I was dry and warm. Hiking hard was not enough to warm them, and huddling under trees for shelter was not an option because of the lightning. It started getting serious when my son’s hands were so cold that he could not tighten the laces on his boots and I had to do it for him. We were about halfway back to our car so I gave him my poncho and we were able to get out with no further problems, although I was damn cold too by that time.

Ever since then I always take a poncho, regardless of other what other rain gear and shelter I’m bringing.

[David D]

David, the S2S ultrasil poncho tarp is 6.7oz on my scale, including bag.  I think its the lightest full coverage option that goes over a pack.  I chose it after looking through all options including packa and mountain ponchos.   I agree with everything you say about ponchos.

Glad you all made it out OK.

A couple times years ago I rendered my right hand useless from cold on long hikes, like your son (I couldn’t even undo my boots).  Now its cold sensitive, probably a connection there worth avoiding.

[Bill Budney]

David G: That’s a good lesson: Rain gear plus rapid shelter (in addition to more robust shelter). Good thing you had the poncho with you. Thanks for telling the story.

I know it’s not the “ultralight way” of eliminating redundancy, but it’s lightweight insurance.

 

[jscott]

“…camping to trip to the Sierra in October 2015 and rain forecast was 100%.”

That’s the moment to bail. why in the world go out into altitude in October in the Sierra with that sort of forecast? Sure, folks make plans ahead of time. For me, weather can be determinative as  to whether to venture out. I’m never looking to be miserable for several days while hiking in cold wet weather. I certainly have no interest in tempting fate. Fate has a way of finding me, despite my best laid plans.

Part of being a wise manly man is to know when to call things off.

[David Gardner]

Oh, believe me, our motto is “getting to the peak is optional, returning home safely is mandatory.” No one was goading us on or trying to out-macho the other.

We talked about the weather we were heading into several times, and and again at the trailhead before we headed out. Temperatures had been mild, we believed we were prepared for rain, even heavy rain, and we had 2 tents, although only one big enough for all 4 of us. We were OK with rain turning into a steady downpour as we climbed up to the ridge, and our destination was a meadow only about 1/4 – 1/2 mile past the ridge. We pushed on to the ridge thinking the weather would hold long enough for us to get to the meadow and get in our tents, and of course the exertion of going uphill was helping us stay warm. It all happened very fast, only 10-15 minutes as we came up and over the ridge, that it turned into an arctic maelstrom and the lightning started hitting within a thousand feet of us. Didn’t have a thermometer, but it probably dropped at least 15 degrees, maybe more, in that time. Like low 50’s-high 40’s to freezing. For sure we were not prepared for a fierce thunderstorm with lightning, and especially the cold. We knew that. But the destination was very close and thought we make the last little bit to the meadow and shelter. But it only took those 10-15 minutes to go from unpleasant to life-threatening, and fail in the attempt to set up the larger tent, to turn us around and start hurrying down. Very slim margin of error. Lessons learned, including always carry a poncho.

[jscott]

David, understood.  You have a ton of experience. Lightening is impossible to forecast. You guys made the right decision, and that’s what matters.

I readily confess to being a fair weather hiker, when possible. come winter, I love to spend the day skiing or hiking and then retreating to the comfort of a rented cabin. Dinner, wine, maybe a basketball game or at least a great novel. Oh, and a heated room!

October is the n between month in the Sierra. after many decades, I’ve come to avoid it. But I ski in winter, so it’s just the pause month before real winter comes in.

Storms are exciting and I’ve been in my share, for sure.

[Mark Verber]

Those are some of the most difficult conditions. For legs either having rain pants/chaps/kilt or fishnet base would have helped a lot.

I have no experience with Mid Peleton 97, I have been using an Alpha Direct hoody (90gsm) which combined with a base + shell keeps more mostly comfortable in those conditions.

I am using some fleece gloves + visp rain mittens. The visp are long enough that I am fully covered without leakage, but even so, in 30F conditions my fingers get cold.  I pull them out of the finger and ball them inside the palm of the gloves.  If I do isometric the fingers are chilled but warm enough.

When I expect conditions like you described, especially on multiple day trips I bring an insulated vest. Originally a montbell thermawrap, these days a plasma 1000 which packs tiny which I use when activity level drops.

I have found that shakedry does keep me dry in multi-hour rainstorms.  It’s my typically solution.  It’s breathable enough than unless I am doing a really hard uphill push in your conditions I don’t sweat, and I dry out pretty quickly when actively level drops to “normal” walking.

In the last year I have been experimenting with using poncho + AD 120gsm poncho liner which has worked surprisingly well.  It’s really nice to pull arms / hands inside.  They warm up quick nicely, and then I wrap them around my torso.

[David Gardner]

Yeah, soaking cold weather is up there with the worst, most dangerous conditions. Even with all synthetic and/or wool layers. At least in snowy winter conditions down jackets and pants can be used safely.

We bailed to a cozy local hotel with real beds and a jacuzzi, ordered pizza, used my phone to watch a movie and had my debit card number nicked. A Type II adventure.

[peter v]

so, let me see if i understand this. it is freezing rain turning to sleet, and you are wet and miserable ? well umm … ya.

but ok, we somehow end up out there in that execrable caca, and what to do for not-so-cold hands ?

if peter v, one simply has a pair of pogies, on his pacer-poles, and they keep hjis hands warm and ok no matter what. sure, one needs a pair of gloves, but they’re nothing special. pogies, for me, make a Huge difference. kayakers too, use them to good effect. (do i need that last comma ?) should i change it to, “kayakers as well …” ?

 

pacer-pole pogies roll up frontwards pretty sweet during warmer parts of the day. and work even better if you anchor them to the hole in the top of the hand-grip. (tap 3/8″NC and use a nylon bolt)

 

[Brad W]

@Ross thanks for the link.

With those winds and a poncho, even if the waist is secured somehow-bungy cord, isn’t rain being blown into the openings-arms, hood? My silnylon jacket while not adequate, did keep me dry where there was coverage as I could cinch down the hood, arms and waste-even while being blasted by head on winds/rain.

[David Gardner]

In those conditions, the poncho was in addition to rain shell (jacket & pants), but the winds weren’t really a problem. There are snaps down the sides of the poncho, and is is not difficult to grasp and hold as necessary when gusty. The hood works as well as any rain gear hood, so no problem there either. I use a gear strap around my waist sometimes, especially if traveling through brush.

[Mark Verber]

+1 to peter v’s pogues.  Most of the tine I don’t need to use my hands while hiking / walking. Often my hands are inside jacket or pants pockets were heat from other parts of my body keep them warm.

If I was still using poles or climbing I would go with more substantial handwear.  I have found that most of my body doesn’t mind cold, but my hands are sensitive.

A friend of mine had raynaud’s after frostbiting his hands climbing.  he did the conditioning pioneered y Murray Hamlet to keep his hands functional in cold weather.  For people who regularly need to have good dexterity / warm hands in cold conditions it could be a useful, but time consuming training exercise.

https://www.raynauds.org/2019/09/26/classical-conditioning-raynauds-therapy/

[Brad W]

@peter those look very interesting. Thanks. I believe the those may have helped tremendously as descending icey/snowy roads as quick as possible-sort of a controlled slide with each step-requires a tremendous grip on the poles-which limits circulation I assume.   Same with my quick uphill pace-hard grip on poles-more slippery the terrain-harder the grip. That grip coupled with saturated gloves(polyester) which don’t seem to retain any insulating properties when wet, inside gtx shell severely inadequate.

 

@Mark interesting. I have always had cold hands, even when I am wearing a t-shirt and running shorts indoor where I feel fine-wife says I have permanent ice mitts.. Maybe Raynaud’s is a possible reason.

[David Gardner]

Pogies! Awesome discovery – thank you peter and Mark. Went online to check them out and discovered they make them for motorcycles and mountain bikes too. Even with thick ski gloves and wool liners my hands freeze on the motorcycle. Heated gloves have limited battery life, and heated grips with professional installation ain’t cheap. Just ordered a pair to try out for $16.

[George W]

Until I moved to the east side of the mountains in Washington I was outside in this type of weather all winter…..and didn’t enjoy it, but became proficient at staying warm and dry.

My collection of rain gear borders on OCD, but after a decade or two it kind reverted back to old school stuff, and there are some good options in that category.

Grundens makes a light weight stretchy 100% waterproof rubber style of rain gear that does several things that can help.

Even though some of the silpoly and silnylon fabrics are close to waterproof, they get clingy and cold when wet, and may pass some water. While heavier to start with, the lightweight rubber doesn’t get clingy or cold feeling, and passes no water.

It also stays slightly stiffer, this helps a great deal when trying to dump heat and moisture. It holds its shape and creates an air space that allows the air movement, and let’s the insulating layers keep their loft. Opening the front zipper, even in the rain, doesn’t mean you get wet, but it does allow good air flow when needed. Once you slow down or it gets colder you can seal everything up again and retain heat.

They make lowers from the same rubber in both bibs and pants. The bibs sort of allow better ventilation because the aren’t tight at the waist, so air flows up and out. Plus they block wind better. The pants are lighter but may not ventilate as well at times.

This gear works very well at keeping you 100% dry from rain, and better than average ventilation. This can result in wearing less clothing underneath by allowing what’s there to work better.

This is sort of a no fail system, In that you can curl up on wet ground while it’s dumping rain and stay dry. I’d do this and take a nap at times.

I don’t like hoods, so typically I used a wide brimmed waterproof hat, but in a storm a hood works better.

While not UL, the comfort factor is improved immensely, and you end up enjoying being outside in that type of weather….well, at least as much as you can.

[David Gardner]

Hey George, I assume you mean this Grundens? They have a number of different types of materials for their garments. Is there a particular type you’re referring to?

[George W]

I’ll need to look at my jacket to see which model it is, it wasn’t obvious on their sight, and mine is several years old. A friend just purchased some a week or so ago.

[George W]

Sorry, I was a bit misleading in my first post. It’s the polyurethane on polyester jacket line, there are many options. My heavier ones are the PVC versions. At first it looks like the PVC version, but when you pick it up the weight difference is significant.

The polyurethane coating is thick and durable for commercial use, but far lighter and more comfortable than the commercial gear most people are familiar with.

You have the option of many bells and whistles, but I use the lighter and simpler models. I use the pullover version if excursion and sweating aren’t expected, it doesn’t have near the ventilation without a zipper, but you aren’t going to get wet.

 

[Sam Farrington]

Brad W, neither the gloves nor the over-mitts are wool.  Both use what appears to be thick woven polyester, and are WPB lined. The mitts are for the worst conditions, so are thicker and heavier and best when the hands are needed for grabbing trees and things that degrade ordinary gloves.  Have found this type of gear at LL Bean, Cabela’s and the like.  Stuff made for hunters is often the most suited for the worst weather.  Granted, it can be heavier.  Staying dry and warm are the priorities, especially in challenging weather, and on longer trips.

[AK Granola]

My only question is, did you put on everything you had when you got cold? Even damp layers will be more useful than no layers.

Those can be summer conditions where I hike in Alaska, 32-40F with rain, spits of snow or sleet, high humidity and fog, freezing overnight. For all-day hikes, I always have a spare balaclava (very lightweight but warm), spare gloves, hot hands, and full decent rain gear. A decently warm fleece (my current fav is a North Face TKA glacier 1/4 zip), and an Enlightened Equipment Torrid jacket. Always an extra bar or two for calories. Emergency blanket. I also carry a sit pad; consider having to be on the ground if you twist an ankle. I’ve lent it to an injured hiker more than once and they were a lot better off than sitting on cold wet ground. If it’s a bit “heavy” for a day hike, so what? Consider it training for an overnight.

Fools listen to local REI employees’ advice on what they need for hiking in Alaska. A guy there once told me that there was no need to bring rain gear because your skin is waterproof. Check your sources.

This photo is July, on a 3 day trek with 2 days of horrendously bad, cold, rainy weather. It had started with T-shirt, sunny weather with no rain in the forecast, and lovely tundra naps, amazing views! Being experienced, we had everything we needed just in case. Weather set in on the first night and steadily worsened. On day 3 the teenagers ate a pound of cheddar in about 20 seconds; wolves on sheep! I had been second guessing my choice of a pound of cheese, but it was worth every gram in my pack. The boys on the right have socks on their hands, because their gloves were too wet. We tore up a plastic ground sheet to cover hands and feet for the final trek out. Our campervan was parked at the trailhead, and never has a cup of hot cocoa been more delicious.

[nunatak]

Wind and ponchos? Done right imo a poncho always wins. I usually combine it with just a Houdini; no rain pants.

When I did the Wind River HR with cold rain and tough breezes on 4 out of 7 days it got the job done.

In fact since I moved to the west (WA, CA, UT, CO)  from Scandinavia 30 years ago I have not used a rain shell backpacking, and I’m not trying to avoid weather.

Of course there have been activities such as alpine/winter climbing and big walls where I brought a legit shell but hiking and backpacking the humble poncho is clearly the choice.

[Brad W]

@AK yes, had all layers on once * hit the fan-OR Echo, Peleton 97, Houdini, Lightheartgear Silnylon rain jacket. OR Ferrosi pants, Houdini wind pants-OR PL400 gloves inside REI GTX Minimalist shells. Had waterproof .5 neoprene socks as well as backup socks-didn’t use.

 

Thanks everyone for the insight-it is much appreciated. Changes going forward will be:

1) More substantial rain jacket-Patagonia Torrentshell 3L.

2) Bringing rain pants

3) Back up pair of gloves/mitts/shells-still figuring this out. Hot hands.

4) Bringing my silnylon tarp. Looking at S2S poncho tarp.

 

 

[Brad W]

I had a chance to do some more inclimate weather hiking recently. I did a 7 mile hike in 33-35F moderate rain that turned to sleet/snow as I gained elevation. Started off with the following clothing:

Topo Trailventure boots-non-waterproof, Darn Tough socks with Hydroskin 0.5 Wetsocks over them.

OR Ferossi pants with Lightheartgear silpoly rain pants over.

OR Echo sun hoody, Kuiu Peleton 97 fleece and Patagonia Torrentshell rain jacket.

OR PL400 gloves with Borah eVent shells.

This combo worked great. I ditched the Peleton fleece while climbing. Even with pit zips fully open I was toasty with just the rain jacket and Echo. Lots of puddles on the trail, small streams, so feet were wet fast but tolerable warmth. Near the end of the climb I ditched the gloves and just kept the shells on and that was fine.

As I got near the top and slowed down, took some pictures I noticed my feet and legs getting much colder. My Ferossi’s were damp under the rain pants. During the entire decent my legs were cold as were my feet. My OR gloves were a little damp-from sweat-so I swapped them out with my backup pair of military wool gloves-this really was nice. Hands were never cold.

Thigs that worked-1)having a full sized rain jacket was nice-I could not feel the cold rain/snow landing on me like I could with my Lightheartgear rain jacket. The hood, cuffs and just overall robustness were a big improvement. 2) back up gloves to swap out. Golden. Won’t ever not bring these.

Things to iron out:1) Wet/damp pants underneath rain shells. I imagined getting to camp with these damp pants being miserable. What can be done about this? Breathable rain pants? 2)Cold feet. Even with the 0.5 neoprene socks, descending- walking through slush and near freezing water constantly entering the shoe it was not good. I just wasn’t generating enough heat to keep them warm.

Any advice on the 2 issues?

[Author]

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