What did I do wrong?-Gear Choices Critique

[Brad W]

Location: PNW. Elevation:3,000ft-5,000ft. Temps 32F-40F. Weather: Light to heavy rain, sleet, snow. Wind 2mph to 40mph+. Terrain: Pine Forests-off trail, fire roads.

Did an 11 or so mile day hike yesterday that started off great and by the end had me second guessing my gear for the given conditions. FWIW I have many thousands of miles hiking/backpacking experience in California-deserts and mountains. Not so much in the PNW.

Started my hike off trail following a nice creek up to its source. 32f, no rain, not much wind. About 2 hours in it went from a light rain to a dump with winds up to 40mph. Was not forecasted.  Wasn’t horrible in the cover of thick forest. Once I got into the forest roads near 5k ft, it was sleeting/snowing horizontally. It was miserable walking for 3 hours in that back to the car. Going downhill I lost what heat was keeping me warm while climbing.  Gloves were soaked, hands numb,  pants, base and mid layers damp and cold-feet were fine. Just a really unpleasant second half which is not normal-I usually embrace the suck-couldn’t do that on this trip. Here is the gear I had. Please feel free to critique my choices for the day in hopes of me not repeating this. Any input is welcome.

Pants-OR Ferrosi,

Base OR Echo, Mid Peleton 97, Houdini windbreaker

Rain Jacket-Lightheartgear Silnylon

Shoes Topo Trailventure Socks-Darn Tough, 0.5mm WP Liners not used.

Gloves-OR PL400, REI Minimalist GTX mitten shells

Wind Pants-Patagonia Houdini

Backpack-REI Flash 22

Traction-Microspikes-didn’t use

 

 

[Bob Shuff]

Following as another CA hiker who doesn’t get much practice in cool and wet conditions.

[Dustin V]

Which parts of you were most miserable? Were you verging on hypothermia?

I can attest the Houdini wind pants won’t keep much rain out.

[Brad W]

Hands by a large margin then core. I must have not paid attention while climbing as I never felt damp until I left tree cover. Once I was descending I couldn’t walk fast enough in the snow/Icey roads to maintain any measurable warmth.

I can’t say for sure, but if the car was another 4-6 miles away I may have been in real trouble. I could not bring feeling back or improve my hands in anyway.

[john mcalpine]

Brad….I’m a Seattle hiker that spends time in the Cascades.

I would’ve been cold too with your choices.

I wear Brnje mesh as against the skin base layer.  Over that I have a light merlino wool baselayer.  On top I have an Alpha Tec 60 gram layer.  Often my rain jacket goes over that.   If I’m freezing my butt off I’ll put a synthetic jacket too.

I’ve never found a rain jacket that works after an hour of heavy rain.   If it’s not windy I always have an umbrella.

I have a lightweight silnylon pair of REI pants.   Over those I’ll have a pair of rain pants.  If it’s not raining I keep both my top/bottom rain hear in my pack.

I always bring two pairs of gloves….just incase one gets wet.

I keep my gloves covered with Showa fishing gloves.  I have a pair of Showa 282-02 with the liner removed/cut out.  Make sure the sleeve of your rain jacket goes over the glove.

 

 

[Brad W]

Thanks John.  Couple of thoughts-1)My jacket while 100% waterproof has an issue with the cuffs being just 1″ too short for my arm length, which may expose my gloves to rain. The GTX shell mitts are not very long on the cuff side either. 2) I normally pack rain pants if any measurable rain is forecasted-my mistake-won’t happen again. 3) With the routes I take, frequent access to my cell phone for navigation is required, pulling glove/mitts on and off just exposes my hands to moisture/elements.

An extra pair of those Showa gloves with some insulating glove would have really changed things.

[Lucas K]

Sorry to hear about your experience, sounds really awful.
Just my opinion, and it’s not the lightest of opinions! I live in Minnesota and spend as much time as I can outdoors no matter the weather. When I hike or trail run I have found that I like to wear a silk weight base layer (ECWCS LEVEL I) and then a grid fleece mid layer (ECWCS LEVEL II) for my upper layer, just silk or merino for bottoms if the temp dictates it. I then layer on a Farpointe Alpha cruiser and if it’s really cold a merino hoodie followed by a rain shell for wind/ wet. I find my hands will stay warm if my core is warm and I don’t have trekking poles, something with the squeeze I think. If there is any possibility of moisture I wear Showa crabbing gloves (blue) with the fuzzy inside, tuck the cuffs under the jacket cuff.

I wasn’t in the military, my brothers were and they guided me to the ECWCS layering system and it works great even if you get damp. I use cross country ski pants for hiking and running in the cold.
My level I and level II layers are all polartec brand.

[Brad W]

@Lucas that’s good information. I do use hiking poles and have colder hands that most from what I can tell. Even if my hands were dry under the shell, they would be very cold without some insulating layer. What rain shell do you use?

[Bill Budney]

Clearly another layer of insulation would have been helpful. Fleece/AD/Airmesh work well even when damp, without adding much weight to your pack. An insulated hood or hat doesn’t weigh much.

In weather around freezing I would carry mittens of some sort. Either mitten liners for your shells, or just water-resistant ski mittens over your OR glove liners. My ski mitts weigh about 6oz and stuff to about 1 liter. They are much warmer than gloves and stay dry in rain.

As you say, rain pants would make a big difference in an unexpected storm.

For a 10+ mile trek in the mountains, I would also carry something to make a shelter, just in case of injury or unexpected extremes. At minimum that would be an emergency poncho and a space blanket (to build a Mors Kochansky Super Shelter), plus a pair of oversized nitrile gloves. That’s three ounces of safety gear that would have given you two extra layers of air insulation on your hike out.

If you can stand to carry another 12 oz, a silnylon poncho/tarp is more flexible (or just a light tarp or bothy). (That’s in addition to the rain jacket and pants, not instead of them.)

Maybe rain sleeves or a couple of bread bags with elastic or tape to seal up the gap between your sleeves and mitts.

EDIT: Agree that parts of the ECWCS are excellent.

[Lucas K]

Embarrassingly enough for my cold weather running and hiking I use an Under Armour rain jacket that is meant for golf. I’ve had good luck with it, it’s light and when it starts losing its water resistance I just treat it with Nikwax spray. I’ve had it for over 7 years and it just works.

[Brad W]

@Bill I do carry SOL 4oz bivy always. I had been brining 5.5×9 silnylon tarp recently but stupidly left it out due to space limitations of my pack-I need 30L for this area I feel at a minimum.

[Lucas K]

I have had my eyes on a Gore-Tex R7 Shakedry jacket, it’s right there on the wishlist with a X-mid pro. 6.2oz and a “never wet through guarantee”, hard to believe but for $240 I’d hope so.

[Bill Budney]

If you had thought of it at the time, then you could have cut head and arm holes in that bivy and made a full body thermal poncho. Probably would have been much more comfortable.

Next time. :)

[David D]

That’s a drag, sorry to hear it. Glad you didn’t get hurt.  Be careful with frozen hands though.  You could end up with cold sensitivity for life if they get cold damaged.

I’m up in Canada (Outaouais area), cold and wet is pretty normal and I hike or snowshoe weekly through all weather down to about -30C.  I also suffer from cold hands and these approaches work for me after trying a few things.

Those conditions are pretty tough.  Finding a balance between warmth without sweat and rain protection without sweating through is challenging.

The first step is to recognize that your hands were probably getting coldest because your core is cold and your body is restricting blood to the extremities.

I love the Brynje Super Thermo, it adds a lot of warmth to my core while managing sweat better than anything else I’ve tried (Smart wool Intraknit, Lifa polopro, MH octa).   I don’t find my Echo good in cold and keep it for summer.   I add the Brynje under another base (Lifa or the Intraknit depending on temps).  I have both the long sleeve and short.  I like the long better, it keeps my arms and hands warmer.  The short is good though when between temps on the other base layers

Also have the Houdini jacket but it soaks through quickly in that weather.  A real rain jacket is what you need for those conditions when not exerting.  I’m a poncho user but that’s just personal preference

Also recommend some waterproof lightweight mitt shells.  I use these, cost is nice: https://www.decathlon.ca/en/p/8396272/hiking-waterproof-over-gloves-mt-500-black.

Then take a couple hot hands and throw them in there when the going gets cold.  Well worth carrying on day hikes if temps dip below 5C.  They do last ~ 8 hours as advertised.  I also have wristies, they help a bit but the bulk starts to add up.

I also use Ferossi pants but and they take a while to saturate with rain, but when they do they are sponges.  Below ~ 10C I switch to more rain resistant pants with a DWR coating (Columbias).

In this case though, I think you needed rain pants.  Houdini will soak through.  I use Marmot Precip Pant (8oz).  Don’t believe the hype, they’re nowhere near breathable enough for use in warmer temps or at an active pace but would have been perfect for your climb down.

I do use Lifa base layer pants but only < ~ -5C.  Base layer pants are just too sweaty when moving above that and are hard to put on/take off as conditions change, the rain pant would be better.  I find rain pants really niche though, -5C to +5C.  Below -5C I hike in lightweight nordic ski pants and a base layer, above 5C, no base, no rain pant.

 

[Brad W]

@Bill good point on using the bivy a makeshift poncho.

@David-I agree with the Ferossi. They really soak up the water and may have been wicking upwards from what little was exposed under the wind pants. What’s odd is how well those Houdini shed water for the first 30 minutes-then like a switch went off they were saturated. I never expected any rain protection-it’s just all I had packed.

I did have the ‘waterproof’ rain shell mitts-it’s just at some point from exposure or pulling gloves on and off the PL400 gloves got wet. It seemed the temps inside that mitt just never got warmer. A dry pair of wool mittens as a backup may have worked? Never used hot hands but see them all over up here-I am getting some.

Base/Mid layers-my OR Echo, Peleton 97 and Houdini have served me well into the mid 20’s while exerting. Problem was the long decent-they became inadequate. Another dry layer would have really helped.

Rain pants for sure are getting packed next time-along with my tarp.

[David D]

Brad, I buy a 40-case of the hot hands off Amazon (nice price) but it’s very cold up here so they get put to use.  They also work gang busters to keep the phone warm in pocket down to any temp, to keep it alive as a navigation aid.

Tarp: I use the S2S poncho tarp, a few ti bishop hooks and some dynema cord: doubles as my rain layer or UL emergency A frame

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

Isn’t it still February?

[Ross Bleakney]

Welcome to the Pacific Northwest! Yeah, this is a very tough time of year to be out and about. I don’t have much to add to what others have mentioned. I get cold hands and when I cross country ski I carry liner gloves, thick woolen mittens and a Goretex outer shell. The shell is actually insulated as well, which means it can be overkill, but it does the job even when I screw up and let my hands get cold. I also carry an extra pair of liner gloves in case the first pair get damp. If both get damp I just put my hands in the woolen mitts (they are never wet enough to matter, as I have them covered in the shell unless it is warm and I’m heading uphill).

I am big on pampering my feet and hands. It doesn’t weigh that much extra. For example I carry way more extra socks (thick wool ones at that) than my friends, even though my pack is much lighter. Same goes with gloves in the winter.

I wear thick double zipped fleece pants. These weigh a ton, but I’m always wearing them so it doesn’t bother me. They soak up water, but it has yet to be a problem because they are thick (and I’m skiing). I wear a nylon skirt as well (for wind while going downhill). If I was hiking I would probably have a lightweight wind/rain shell. It wouldn’t weigh much, and keep most of the rain out off of your fleece. You can always take it off and wring it out if it gets saturated. Another option would be to just put some long underwear underneath what you had (assuming it was water resistant enough). Long underwear doesn’t weigh much at all. One of the key elements (and I would say way more important than pants) is to keep your feet warm and dry.

I would have a thicker fleece middle as well. All of that is a lot of extra weight but winter is no time to stretch the envelope.

 

 

[Sam Farrington]

My gear is older, so possibly not familiar to all.  Use a Patagonia M-10 WPB rain jacket (no longer made, but still kicking).  Underneath is a fleece top over a poly polo to absorb moisture.  If there is any possibility of cold and/or wet, a synthetic puffy goes into the day pack to wear under the fleece.

Seems we all agree that WPB rain pants also belong in the pack; but they must be proven and reliable, and sturdy enough to hold up.  WPB gaiters also.  Choice of boots is a personal choice because of the priority for fit; but prefer WPB even in summer to handle sloshing.  Traction devices can include creepers or spikes; but use sturdy snowshoes with spikes in the snow.

The head has to be kept warm also.  Use a WPB bucket hat, over a long fleece beany that covers the head, or a heavy woven poly one if any chance of rain/cold.  The sox are always a thick woven poly from Canada bought at a now defunct hunting gear shop in northern NH.

Agree with thick fleece gloves, with a sturdy WPB mitt in the pack.

Have noticed with the global climate change that everything seems colder.  It may be due to increased humidity compared to the dry cold  of yore.  Synthetic puffy pants as well as the top must now go into the daypack, to go under the rainpants if cold expected.

I never use cotton or wool anything.  They both love water.

Staying dry and warm from head to toe is a must.  Learned that from my late parents.  If there is any chance of getting wet sloshing or the like, I bail out; although got tricked once by a wet all night ice storm  that froze solid when I had to descend the next day.  Like some of you, have had some close calls even here in the great northeastern winters.  From what I know of the great northwest, some of you are even more challenged.  Note: the above was not intended for overnights, except in four sided shelters.

[Brad W]

@David that S2S Poncho looks great. I wouldn’t be able to utilize it off trail as it would get snagged but on the forest roads and the shelter aspect is nice. Ordering the hot hands for sure.

@Ross It’s blatantly obvious I need to dial in my gloves. I have struggled with finding anything that fits my needs, but a separate set of wool liners and shells would have made things much better. Which goretex shells do you use for your system?

I agree a warmer mid layer would have helped. I have gotten away with lighter stuff as I said by just upping my output-that didn’t work on the second half of this trip. Short of running full speed down snowy, Icey forest roads, there was no way to generate enough warmth by excursion given the conditions.

@Sam I see most recommend wool liner gloves or mitts. Isn’t their benefit retaining some insulating properties while wet? Have you found fleece much better at that?

[HkNewman]

Freezing temperatures and precipitation likely?

Would have added my Senchi alpha-direct 90gsm hoody w/chest zip, at least, and a Capilene mid-wt bottom (the latter not that much more weight than an alpha direct one and more available). Also have some Patagonia Regulator fleece gloves as a hair above 1 oz per pair.

Probably a more serious shell too.  I have the old 3 layer Montane 777 from the UK in my day hike-ish/summertime-serious UL kits, as I figure they know about moving in the rain.  Probably wouldn’t last under heavier pack weights, but that’s what Patagonia/Arcteryx are for.

[Brad W]

@HkNewman more robust rain jacket is on my list. Looking at the Patagonia Torrentshell 3L, but open to other suggestions.

[jscott]

Sleet is the worst weather. Snow doesn’t wet you out; rain implies at least somewhat warmer temps.

In sleet conditions, the chance of my sweating a rain jacket out from the inside is minimal or non-existent. But I run cold, literally, as my normal body temp is under 97 degrees. As such, even hiking up a steep pass with a full backpack, I don’t sweat out wearing a 3 ply Event jacket (yeah old school I know!) I imagine I’d be fine in a non breathable rain garment as well. In those conditions keeping moisture out is primary, especially around the upper body. Similarly, my legs/lower body don’t sweat much or at all in those temps. So again, full on rain protection without worrying about ‘breathable’ garments is my choice.

I’ve had good results with Rab wp gloves for Nordic and cross country skiing. Again, in winter my hands don’t sweat, even Nordic skiing.

[David D]

Brad, I hike below freezing 4-5 months a year & tried all kinds of cold weather gloves (wool, fleece, synth ski, snowmobile…) and liners (silk, cotton, poly, neo, metalized moto liners…).   Best glove for me is fleece (breathable) convertible fingerless (to work phone nav).   I don’t know if this is any good, but its the basic idea.

For liners: silk at higher temps (I burn a small hole in the finger tips so I can work the phone) and then thin running/hiking poly/elastane gloves fit tightly and with touch fingers, for lower temps:

0 to 10C I just use the poly/elastane

The overshell is what I posted earlier.

Works for me and is cheap.

I can’t bring myself to drop several hundred bucks on gloves.

[Brad W]

@David thanks. I will check that out. I hate spending money on something that won’t work either. Having modularity seems to be key.

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