water carry in winter

[Mark]

Jerry,

I thought we agreed that was only on Sundays :p

Urine colour is a good rough guide there are a few problems with that in hiking scenarios though

1/ How do we accurately pick out the colour of our urine when hiking?

At home and back in civilisation we usually pee into white bowls so the colour is easy to spot, out hiking we usually pee up trees or rock faces so colour detection especially tint is VERY hit and miss as we have no white colour compare our stream against

2/ The urine in our bladder has already passed through our kidneys so you’re actually getting an estimate on how hydrated you were before your bladder filled up.

You could drink your 7 cups of water before a hike, fill your bladder, spend the next 3 hours sweating, urinate and see a normal colour yet you’re already in the first stages of dehydration

3/ If you’re dehydrated you won’t pee much at all, in this situation urine colour is an extremely poor method of judging hydration levels.

What keeps coming back in my mind is simply “why risk it”, what is the gain?

The effects of dehydration range from headaches and confusion right through to kidney stones and the quicker onset of hypothermia, even if you don’t go that far it’s likely your hiking day has been miserable and it’s highly unlikely the day after will be much better.

So is it really worth all those risks for no gain at all?

 

[Eric Blumensaadt]

As a ski patroller we were OFFICIALLY warned to never start the morning without being well hydrated B/C other wise we should never be able to “catch up” during the day. I believe that dictum from sad experience and follow it.

BTW, Speaking with my cardiologist friend he tells me that among deer hunters in Pennsylvania a common problem is that they drink coffee, a diuretic, and get dehydrated, then struggle with dragging out a deer in deep snow and have a heart attack not just from having “iffy” health but, he says, from being dehydrated which exacerbates the situation.

[Jerry Adams]

I missed your comments Mark : )

drink more than the absolute minimum to take into account what you said, add whatever margin you wish

but beyond that, you’re just carrying extra weight that you’ll just pee on the ground

a little dehydration isn’t a problem, like if your pee goes from pale yellow to dark yellow

If you’re an athlete or it’s super hot you’ll want to drink more.  I think it can become impossible to keep up with water loss and a little dehydration is unavoidable.  This is beyond my experience.  Maybe a bladder and hose would be good?

Most places in Oregon and Washington there are multiple reliable water sources during each day.  I could carry no water.

[Mark]

Happy holidays to you and your loved ones Jerry, hope you had a good day.

I think we are getting to the stage where we are going to have to agree to disagree, as i strongly disagree that:

a little dehydration isn’t a problem

My problems with this are

• How are you measuring this?

I’ve previously stated how using urine colour isn’t a reliable method, even if it was as we only tend to urinate a few times each day this leaves vast amounts of time where your hydration indicator isn’t available.

• On trails that we don’t know well how do guarantee that you’ll be a “little” dehydrated?

We’re not talking about sitting at home here were we can nip to the kitchen for some water if we start to feel a little dehydrated, if you plan on getting dehydrated before the next water supply point then what happens if that supply point is dried up, contaminated, you take a wrong turn and miss it?

BTW i have had all 3 on my travels

You’ve now gone from what you perceive as a little dehydrated to a potential long term problem.

• If you regularly put your body through being dehydrated (even a little) you dramatically increase your chances of kidney stones and even DVT

• As i say, what’s the gain for this risk?

You’ll be carrying a water bottle and water any ways, a slightly larger bottle with say 500ml of water in will weight next to nothing, i certainly can’t tell the difference if my pack is 9kg or 9,5kg

Even crazier is if you’re drinking a lot at each stop you’re not even saving any weight as the water weighs the same amount if it’s inside you or in a bottle.

Again, you know your body and where you hike so i’m in no position to judge you or your actions, but i can’t help but think that when you look at the actual risks, long tern health worries, recovery, fatigue (both mentally and physically) against a very hit and miss hydration detection method (how are you checking your urine colour mid hike btw?) and no noticeable weight saving im struggling to see any logic behind your choices.

[Jerry Adams]

I think both strategies can be valid, depending on conditions and the individual

When urinating, at least for men, you can just see, approximately what the color is.  Thirst is another indicator.

Past experience is also valid – for the hikes I do, I drink several pints before and can see urine color so I know I’m hydrated and any extra gets eliminated within an hour or so.  Then, walking 10 miles, in cool weather, if I drink 1 pint, at the end of the day my urine will only be slightly dark and I won’t be particularly thirsty.

If it’s hot, same thing except I’ll drink 3 pints over the course of the day.

Occasionally, I’ll get a little dehydrated, but the risk is low.  At least according to the Cleveland Clinic, which is just the first source in the google search, but I know they’re reputable, if my urine is dark yellow I should drink some water.  If it’s honey colored, then I’ve gone too far, but I can’t think of a case I’ve done that.

I could carry 2 pints of water, which would be an extra pound.  Like you said, that’s hardly noticeable.  Most people do this.  But, this is BPL where people go to extremes to save a little weight : )

[Roger Caffin]

The whole ‘dehydrated’  business is an urban myth, promoted by the vendors of ‘sports drinks’ (and others). It is very unlikely that you will ever suffer real dehydration, despite all the scare stories. Read the following for more info:

http://bushwalkingnsw.org.au/clubsites/FAQ/FAQ_Salt.htm

Cheers

[Mark]

Jerry,

Have to say that in my 47 years as a bloke (we won’t go into before :)) i’ve found it very difficult to accurately detect the tint my urine has in a out doors environment.

At home i am urinating into a white bowl so it’s easy to see even if it’s off slightly, on the hills i’m usually urinating up a tree or against a rock so i don’t see how you can accurately see tint when urinating against a darker colour.

The other thing is, if you are dehydrated then you will not urinate, so i’m struggling to see how the colour or your urine would work in that instance.

We won’t even get into the days you eat beetroot ;)

 

Roger,

Dehydration is not a myth and linking to a site that offers absolutely no evidence to support your statement doesn’t change that.

 

 

[Dan Geiger]

As someone who suffered a 19 millimeter Kidney stone this summer ( up the wee wee operation) be sure to stay hydrated.I have always tended to drink when i get thirsty or when my pee gets a little dark so no set amount per day fluid intake.I am now drinking 2 + liters a day and hope i never have to go through that hell again.This is my 3 rd stone  i get them about very 10 years.

[Jerry Adams]

I would not want an up the wee wee operation

In your case, definitely drink more water

But there’s still some amount of water you need, and beyond that is just extra weight

[Bob Moulder]

I don’t know how I survived my childhood in Florida. We kids ran around all day in the heat and humidity and drank when we were thirsty. Sometimes my Granny gave us 10¢ to get a Coke from the soda pop machine at the laundromat a couple of blocks away. It was a real treat to get a Slurpee at the 7-Eleven. Other than that, we just stuck our faces under the faucet at my house or my friend Doug’s house and drank tap water. Funny nowadays to watch the helicopter parents drowning their little snowflakes in Evian and boxed juice, convinced that mere tap water is poison.

 

[Mark]

Difficult to understand exactly what point you are trying to out across Bob.

You bewilderment in having survived childhood does not diminish the risks and problems that dehydration causes.

People suffer the effects of dehydration on a regular basis around the world (and did when you were a kid), sometimes these cannot be helped, as we are talking specifically about hiking though my opinion is that it’s something that can easily be crossed off the list of concerns.

The price for ticking this off the list = nothing, zero, no extra money spent and compared to guzzling up at each water hole no extra weight carried.

I’m absolutely certain that drinks manufacturers and companies that make money by trying to get as much fluid down our necks as possible exaggerate the risks, there are no doubt countless company sponsored research papers out there the lean heavily towards influencing us to buy their products.

I’m of the belief that a majority of these hydration drinks are just not needed for the vast vast majority of us hikers in most conditions.

My advice is to just carry a little extra water and to take sips every now and then.

Will you drop dead if you don’t take on this advice = highly unlikely

Will adopting this advice reduce your risk of kidney stones, DVT and the effects of dehydration = Yep

Again i can’t stress enough, at what cost = zero, zilch, nada, nothing

 

 

[David Chenault]

Down to the upper 20s I’ve never had significant issues with bladders, hoses, and valves.  Below that, which includes wind chill, things get complicated.  Hose insulation, a heat pack next to where the hose enters the bladder, and a simple bite valve which can be chewed to get rid of ice all help,  I’ve ended up drinking out of fill cap of the bladder often enough that I rarely use anything but nalgenes in winter.  They can be beaten against trees and ski bindings when they freeze shut with no ill effects.

 

 

And Roger and Jerry are extraordinarily wrong.  Ignorance is bliss.

[Anonymous]

I’ve found the insulation works better than the blow-back method. Otherwise small droplets freeze even faster. If they’re overpriced you can probably MYOG. It’s a pretty simple sleeve of fabric, no actual stuffing on the versions I’ve seen.

Thanks to a super awesome nurse I dated in Arizona. Can confirm Hyponatremia gets more people in the grand canyon than actual dehydration. The fix is gatoraid powder rather than not drinking water. Otherwise anyone not used to that heat will wither.

She also told me about a thing called Rhabdomyolysis. Where extreme shocks of prolonged physical activity and rapid muscle cell breakdown, which “poisons” the blood with cellular waste. It’s primarily a danger to your kidneys. Drinking more water to help dilute the poison going thru your kidneys is recommended. I’m guessing this also might be partially why Gary’s pee was orange for a couple weeks. Happens to me too.

As you acclimate more to specific outdoor climates, these risk factors go down. So that’s why its likely a noob will need more water than Roger.

 

 

[Anonymous]

Bob,

I get what you’re saying, but I think its an easy misconception. Little kid’s bodies are surprisingly more rugged and recover faster than old fart’s. Case and point, compare hangovers when you’re 18 to now.

Also your example is at sea level. My reading indicates dehydration is magnified with altitude.

[Jerry Adams]

and you get more altitude sickness if you don’t drink enough

a rule of thumb is to take 2 quarts to climb a typical cascade volcano

[Author]

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