Tent Heater options – candle/alcohol/propane, what to use?

[Christoph Blank]

Hi there,

For a photography trip in the alps, where my “basecamp” shelter is always at the same place
and where I sometimes have to sit around during waiting time, I’d like to heat up the tent a bit.
The tent is single wall (unfortunately), single person.

I had a look what people do use, and came across the following options:

(As BPL seems to be unable to fix a problem when posting multiple links, I outsourced the content):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/11OH1KH-Y5jCT-bgw-p511UrbB0NTbkoKrzbcBad9j90/edit?usp=sharing

Although weight is not my main concern, as I carry it only once to my basecamp location, I prefer something compact.
I didn’t find too many compact options though besides the lantern and the stove adapters.

Does anyone have experience with heating a tent like this and can share some insight or give
suggestions?

Thanks a lot,
Christoph

[Richard Nisley]

Christoph,

What is the ambient temperature range when you want to heat your tent and what temp do you want your outer clothing to be? What is your required heating duration per trip? What is your tent’s material, shape, and venting?

[Christoph Blank]

Hi Richard, thanks for your answer!

First, let me explain that I’m not targetting a particular temperature, or really want to get anywhere specific. I just want to find out what is possible with which setups, what have people tried etc.

Then of course it would be interesting to learn how for the factors:
– tent material
– double vs single wall
– different heaters
would affect the situation. To answer questions like: Instead of a candle lantern it makes much more sense to just take a double walled tent, or a different material, and so on..

The trip I was referring to is during autumn in the alps. When I was there before the temperature range was from roughly -3C when it was rather cold, to +8/10C (the lowest point is at 1800m).

The tent is Nylon, I think 30D but would have to check in detail. I have various shelters but most of them are rather lightweight, ponchotarps etc. Have yet to look at a good single person winter shelter. Tent has a vent at the top, which I can close. It has no floor.

Heating duration is an interesting question. I would say 3-4 hours per day as I’m hiking all day, cooking in the evening, reading a bit, sleeping.

I’m taking a winter sleeping bag, down jacket etc, so it’s not that I’m too cold and the outer clothing temperature is not something that could be a problem or I have specific numbers in mind.
But I’d like to find out what makes sense, if it is worth to take any of these options, how they compare, etc.

Thank you for any inputs/thoughts.

[DAN-Y]

I’d go with the Origo Heat Pal. I have several, work great, built in wind screen for cooking in windy alp conditions. Fuel container holds at least 1 quart of denatured alcohol. Has on off dial controls and can simmer for low heat output in tent. I have one used unit that I will let go if interested.

 

P.S.  once fuel is placed in fuel container it is absorbed, won’t spill out. Starlytes were patterned after this design ;)

[Gaute Lote]

 

What are you cooking with? I’d guess that easiest and lightest way to heat a tent is to bring extra fuel for the stove you are already carrying? My Ultamid 2 heats up pretty fast when I’m cooking inside with a standard top mounted canister stove. Or bring a light latern like the primus Mikron latern ( http://www.primus.eu/micron-lantern-steel-mesh) . Laterns like this produce a lot of heat and light, typically you can feel the heat radiation easily up to a meter or more from them. They also use very little fuel compared to  a stove. (If you go with a latern, bring extra glownets as they are fragile…)

 

 

[Ken Thompson]

There are wood stove options too. Just to add to the already mentioned choices.

[Richard Nisley]

Christopher,

A single wall shelter with a vent on top and no floor will not work efficiently with most of the heating options you looked at (candle lanterns, Heat-Pal 5100 alcohol heater, or various greenhouse heaters). You will be sitting adjacent to the heater, not above it. Convection will transport most of the heat vertically to the top of the tent and out the vent. Even if you close the vent, the single wall fabric will quickly transport the heat by conduction through the thin single layer fabric of the roof to the outside.

Radiant heat will not warm the tent inner, but it will warm you when sitting across from it. The issue with most of the radiant options you mentioned (Mr. Heater Little Buddy or Propane Heater) is that the heaters are prohibitively heavy and they require heavy propane canisters. Butane cylinders won’t function efficiently (butane propane heater option) at your anticipated minimum low temperature of -3C (26.6F).

For the temperature range and shelter you specified, the stove cover MIGHT work. Stainless steel has an emissivity of ~.07. Only if they chose a custom stainless steel alloy (1 of about 60 options) that will quickly oxidize to an emissivity of >.85 would this work efficiently.

What will work efficiently for the parameters you specified is an Isobutane/propane winter mix canister combined with a Kovea Fireball radiant heater. If the temperature drops up to 20F below your currently specified minimum, you can just use the swivel nozzle to invert the Isobutane/propane mix canister after the preheat tube is hot. The weight of this option is 19.9 oz. plus an Isobutane canister.

The MSR WindBurner radiant heat stove, braced at a 45 degree angle, may also work efficiently (CO may be an issue) to heat you in the shelter you specified. They obviously do double duty to also heat your meals as will the Kovea Fireball or the stove under the add-on stove top radiant heater.

Only the Kovea Fireball or possibly an inverted canister Isobutane/propane stove under the stove top radiant heat converter give you an additional 20F low temperature tolerance by just inverting the canister.

[Roger Caffin]

Bear in mind that closing the tent up to keep the warmth in will also mean an serious CO hazard. People have died this way.

-3 C to +10 C is hardly cold. A double wall tent, good clothing and a good mat is all most of us need – plus a good stove and good food. This is Backpacking LIGHT, not tourist camping, after all.

Cheers

 

[David Thomas]

For such base camp use, I’d look for Coleman catalytic heater.  Runs on white gas.  $5-10 at a thrift store or garage sale.  $30-40 on eBay.  3,500-5,000 BTU/hour (1200-1500 watts).

[DAN-Y]

Base camp Origo 5000. You can sit on it while you read and wait for the right “Kodak  moment” time.

 

Photos of the Heat Pal

http://www.usedcowichan.com/ReportSelectUsedAdPhoto2?used_ad_id=22328950&position=3&hb=2

[David Thomas]

For a candle or other small heat source to do much, you need to be a much less leaky, much better insulated structure (e.g. a snow cave).

If using a heater of any kind for more than 10-15 minutes, I’d want to check out it’s CO emissions first.  One way to do that is to set it up at home and run the heater while running an aviation CO monitor (the home CO monitors are set to be rather insensitive and only trip after a long period of high CO because the fire departments don’t like getting called out for every little exceedance).

[Christoph Blank]

Thank you very much for the postings!

@Roger, of course, but light does not imply I have to sit in the cold :) On these kinds of tours, where I like to review photos etc, I do accept a bit more luxury, usually.

@Richard Nisley, thank you once more for the very detailed explanation.
First of all, the question I had in mind is: Aren’t some of the heaters posted initially at least partially radiant? Not sure about candles, but for example the stove covers are glowing quite a bit (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Martyn_s30v/media/heater.jpg.html). How are the radiant heaters different from a propane gas lantern like the micron?.

The issue about the emissivity of stainless steel, that’s interesting. I ordered 2 such stove covers from Aliexpress as they are quite cheap there, only for testing how well they work. Will try to use them on a couple of different stoves I have here.

I was actually looking for something like the Kovea Fireball, the concept seems to be quite old and it is rather compact, compared to the alternatives.
Unfortunately it seems these are not available in Europe, I couldn’t find it anywhere.

Getting back to topic: As your explanations are targeted towards my, as you mentioned, sub-optimal shelter setup, I wondered what I can improve to have the possibility to use other options. This might be more efficient than using a powerful heater in a tent that barely isolates.

For example, what kind of shelter would you suggest for better isolation? I don’t need T-Shirt temperatures, I’m okay wearing a lot, so it might be possible to try different options – both in terms of shelter and heater. But I don’t want to carry around candles for testing, if I know it won’t help anything.

And as already said, it’s not about having a definite plan or guaranteed warmth, it’s mainly out of interest. How well and efficient would this work with a good setup.

[Gary Dunckel]

Gaute, your suggestion of using a Primus Micron lantern wasn’t lost on me. Mine does put out a good amount of heat. I modified it to be able to safely set a metal cup on the flat top, which allows me to take advantage of the heat to simmer a cup of soup or warm up water for hot chocolate, etc. I was actually thinking of surprising my buddy by taking it along (with an extra 110 gm. canister) when we do a couple nights an the trail to chase the aspen fall colors. Up to this point I’ve only used it while truck camping.

So I started wondering how fuel efficient it was, really. This afternoon I did a little test, and have some soup in the process. I turned the lantern on at a very low setting, to conserve fuel. After 10 minutes, the soup was ready, so I shut it off and weighed the canister to see how much fuel was consumed. I used 6.3 grams in 10 minutes, which is quite a bit less than the usual 5 grams per a 2-cup boil that takes 4-5 minutes. While I was a bit pleased with that result, it dawned on me that at that rate of fuel consumption a 110 gm. canister would only last 1.75 hours–hardly worth the carried weight. I calculated that a 220 gm. canister would last 3.5 hours (maybe one full evening), and one of the large 450 gm canisters would last 7.0 hours (one weekend?). For use while backpacking, the only way it would work is if one was with a group of 4-6 people, and everyone carried an extra fuel canister. It could also be a good option if the group was supported by pack horses, elephants, camels, or a full-on team of porters. Sled dogs won’t really work, due to Richard’s point about cold weather canister performance. I think I will continue to just use mine while truck camping, and rely upon proper insulation to keep me warm while backpacking.

My main concern about using a canister lantern inside a tent parallels Roger’s–how much bloody carbon monoxide do these lanterns put out anyway?

[Christoph Blank]

Well that also a good and valid point – so these lanterns consume quite a lot. And I assume the radiation heaters don’t consume much less..

[Ian]

One option that would avoid potential CO exposure (assuming you heat the water outside) would be to fill a water bottle or two up with boiling water, putting them in a sock, and strategically placing them under your jacket or wherever to help keep the chill off.

[Christoph Blank]

@richard nisley, a similar alternative to the Kovea Fireball which is quite popular seems to be this double burner: BRS-22 double burner (link again not working). I assume it’s roughly the same, doesn’t run on gasoline though

It would be interesting to know how many Watts/BTU you need in a single person tent, when having a better shelter etc, to look for heaters in that range.

[Roger Caffin]

As your explanations are targeted towards my, as you mentioned, sub-optimal shelter setup, I wondered what I can improve to have the possibility to use other options.
A good double-skin tent will keep you a lot warmer. I can vouch for improvements of up to 5 C in the snow, while others have claimed far higher improvements. With two people in a double-skin tent you can be quite warm without any extra heating. I suggest that changing from a single-ski tent to a good double-skin tent will be your safest and most effective change.

Sadly, I have to add that I would not be looking for an Asian or USA tent for this. The market is not there, so the mfrs are not there either. But some European tents can do this very nicely, and there is always the New Zealand Macpac Olympus tent: the gold standard imho for high-altitude winter tents. None of these tents are cheap, but you get to sleep very happily in them.

I should add that having two people in a tent is MUCH warmer than being solo. Having 3 people would be even warmer. Consider this: those other people in your tent are HEATERS!

The radiant stoves could be a hazard. The MSR Reactor is a very well-known radiant stove; it is also a very dangerous CO emitter, with levels up to 2,000 ppm. That is in the lethal zone. Thing is, you can die from CO poisoning without noticing any ill effects. Very insidious.

Cheers

 

[Jeff Hollis]

I sometimes use a buddy burner (also called other names) and have have for years to replace the light of a fire or for heat inside a tent depending on temperatures. Not the best choice for small spaces with the open flame but a 2 man tent would work for one person as long as your careful and not sleeping. You can Google it but It is basically a tuna can with corrugated cardboard rolled up inside and filled with liquid paraffin and then left to cool. Think of it as a candle with a wick/flame the size of a tuna can. It is really great light with ambiance and I have used it with a group where fires aren’t allowed. Also paraffin has a high BTU so puts out quite a bit of heat. Buddy burners do consume quite a bit of wax (paraffin) which is heavy but still much lighter than a catalytic heater option.  A small vent in the door is all you need but best to extinguish it outside as the smoldering puts out a lot of smoke. I hope this helps.

[Christoph Blank]

Thank you Jeff for the suggestion – while I think that stove is not suitable for usage in the tent, it seems to be a good option to have in the car, for cooking etc and can be easily made out of old candle wax or similar.

@Roger Caffin, thanks as well for the input! Two questions:

1. Can you suggest any specific European tents or tent makers, threads or anything like that? As I’m alone most of the time I would look for a single shelter. Weight is also an issue if I have to carry it myself. The Olympus is quite heavy and for 2 people. So anything in the middle (also won’t be out in -20C) would be perfect..
I think a better insulated 3-season tent would work well for me. Usually tents are marked as 4-season due to stability with heavy snow loads. So far I’m not planning any trips with too much snow, rather autumn and autumn-winter shoulder seasons.

2. As you are mentioning the PPM output of the MSR stove – are there any tables/lists or measurements across different heaters or stoves, to have an idea of how where they are roughly?

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Christoph

The most common Euro tents come from Hilleberg. We have a thread just about them. But they are certainly not the only brand.
https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/63979/

We have a review of the H Nallo 2 (2 man) in our survey of many brands of tunnel tents:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/tunnel_tents_part1.html
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/tunnel_tents_part2_2012.html
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/tunnel_tents_part3_2012.htm

1-man tents are not all that popular for winter use for several reasons: you are safer with a partner, two 1-man tents work out heavier and colder, and structurally they are just not as good.

CO emissions of stoves: a huge survey, found starting here but there are 6 parts to it. Yeah, we get technical at BPL.
http://backpackinglight.com/stoves_tents_carbon_monoxide/
I repeat: people have died from CO poisoning. Do not seal your tent!

Cheers

 

 

[Christoph Blank]

Thanks @roger!

I agree but I definitely don’t expect extreme conditions or Alps in winter. Mostly autumn/spring where there are occassional 5cm of snow in the morning. On these trips I don’t have/need a partner (from the safety perspective). So I was looking at single person tents that I might heat up a bit.
Regarding emissions I prefer to stay on the safe side and rather sleep a bit colder than sealing anything.
Btw. are there any usable and affordable pocket sized CO warners? I looked for this a while ago but mainly found 12V camping vehicle devices.

I know the Hilleberg tents, but they are too expensive for my taste. Also came across a thread where it was shown that the solo 4 season tent was not really made for snow loads – can’t remember which one though.

From what I read in other threads, the MSR seem to be quite popular as well, not sure about models though. Reading that propane/butane is preferrable and long flames indicate more emissions is quite handy for selection already.

Thank you for the links, I have yet to dig into them.

[Roger Caffin]

pocket sized CO warners?
Not really pocket-sized, afaik.

they are too expensive for my taste.
That’s where you have to make a decision. A good place for this is up in the mountains under some bad weather. Then you realise what is important.

MSR: opinions vary. They used to be very good, but then the founder died and the lawyers and accountants took over. It’s been downhill since then I fear.

Cheers

 

[Christoph Blank]

Oh, thanks for the clarification on MSR, I didn’t know that. I’m not aware of other alternatives to Hilleberg regarding good double wall tents for colder times. Have to read and see what people are using.

[Gary Dunckel]

Grabber makes a self-adhesive “body warmer.” Larger than their regular hand warmers, they put out an average temperature of 127* F (54* C), and they last for ~10 hours. They used to sell fleece envelopes to put them in so that the warmer doesn’t touch your skin. I’ve used these on very cold nights, where I placed one inside the sleeping bag at the foot. They are also quite effective when you place one over each kidney (on the outside of your mid layer and under your main insulating parka). Hunters sometimes use them this way when they are sedately spending the day in a duck blind in the depth of winter in Minnesota. Like Roger says, they are a bit expensive, but they do the job of keeping you warm for a good long time.

Regarding the fuel efficiency of the Primus Micron lantern, I have to correct what I wrote in my post above. I did my math wrong, and I now know that I can get almost 3.0 hours of light (and some heat) from one 110 gm. fuel canister, and about 6.0 hours with a 220 gm. canister. This is on a very low flame setting.

Last night after dark I tested things again, using up the last 1.05 ounce of fuel in an MSR 220 gm canister. I also placed 1.5 cups of 60* F water in a Snow Peak 450 cup to see how long it would take to get hot. The water reached a boil (201* F at my altitude) in one hour, and the lantern stayed lit for 1 hour 20 minutes. This was far more efficient than my earlier test, at 3.72 gm./10 minutes vs. the 6.3 gm. the first time. I think that this was due to me having set the flame at the lowest possible setting, which was easier to do when it was dark. The result was a longer than expected run time, but a marked reduction in heat output. This is reflected by the fact that it took a full hour to get 1.5 C. of water to the boiling point, whereas I had the 1.0 C warmed up to about 160* F in 10 minutes.

So, given these comparative results, I feel that the lowest possible lantern flame setting can yield decent light output with pretty good fuel efficiency, but the heat output is proportionally lessened (which defeats the OP’s intended goal). But it might be possible to get nearly 5 hours of low light with one 110 gm. fuel canister in calm conditions at above-freezing temperatures. For ambient temperatures below + 40* F, I would choose to place an insulating cozy on the canister and set it on top of a standard hand warmer. That should allow the lantern to purr along quite nicely. I might try this out on our next trip after all, to see how things work in the field. 2.5 hours of low light each night could be worth it, if only for the shock-and-awe effect on my buddy.

[David Thomas]

The amount of fuel consumed is directly related to the heat produced.  There is no free lunch here.  If somewhere is “more efficient” of fuel per time, it is because it is putting out less heat.  And that also holds for fueled lanterns since very little of their output is light (and when it shines on something, it turns to heat).

So focus more on how much heat output do you need to take the chill off (that will take some experimentation) and then what low-CO device can be turned down that much?

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