Source for 10D or 15D or 20D Nylon 66 Ripstop Sil/Sil?

[Moab Randy]

Hi all,

After reading your discussions about polyester vs nylon (thank you for those), I’m still planning on using silnylon for my next tent and was pretty settled on RBTR’s 1.1 oz (1.5 osy finished) 30D MTN Silnylon 6.6 with Sil/Sil coating (they claim 3000 mm HH).

See: (https://ripstopbytheroll.com/collections/waterproof-nylon-fabric/products/1-1-oz-mtn-silnylon?variant=40501528232106).

But then I noticed that Slingfin makes their SplitWing UL Tarp from 10D Nylon 66 Ripstop Sil/Sil.

Anybody know where I might find that lighter fabric or have opinions on it? or have experience using the RBTR version? or know other (20D or 15D) nylon Sil/Sil fabrics with higher HH?

[Monte Masterson]

I don’t know of any sources of 10D or 15D silnylons and I’ve searched all over for years. Extremtextil of Germany offers a high tenacity 20D sil sil nylon with a high HH that is almost as light as 15D silnylons. I’ve never used any, but it is highly lauded by many. Don’t know if it’s a 6,6, but lets face it the Germans don’t deal in junk. https://www.extremtextil.de/en/ripstop-nylon-tentfabric-silicone-coated-20den-36g-sqm.html?number=70777.SAND

[Monte Masterson]

And I realize it’s probably cost prohibitive for you, but if money is no object the best thing to do would be to buy a Hilleberg Tarp 10 or Tarp 20 UL made with the Kerlon 1200 20D silnylon 6 and cannibalize the fabric. It might sound kooky I know, but the material is probably the highest quality 20D silnylon available in the world. https://hilleberg.com/eng/shelters/tarp/#link_detailsLink

[Stumphges]

The 20d ExtremeTextil stuff looks very comparable to Hilleberg’s Kerlon 1000. Both 20d, Kerlon a little heavier and with three coats of silicone rather than two.

There were reports a while back of the Extreme stuff having a loose weave, and so being very stretchy and possibly having difficulty holding a seam. Has anyone used this stuff to satisfaction?

If so, it’s a very attractive fabric, being lighter than MLD’s 20d sil, significantly so, and only ~30% heavier than 0.8 oz DCF.

[Monte Masterson]

You are correct Stumphges and I was wrong. Only the Hilleberg Tarp 5 is made with the 20D Kerlon 1000 (yellow label) and the Tarp 10 and Tarp 20 are made with the Kerlon 1200 30D, my bad.

And when I do the conversions the extremtextil 20D weighs 30.1 g or 1.06 oz per square yard. Most 15D silnylons are around 1.05 oz per sq yd.

 

[Moab Randy]

Monte, thank you for your suggestions. The Hilleberg does indeed sound great, but the price . . . Not sure enough of my design or sewing skills to invest that yet.

I looked at the Extreme fabric. Is that 1.06 oz the finished (coated) weight, or before coating (the way RBTR lists its fabrics)? If the latter, do you know the finished weight?

Anyone want to comment on the ordering/shipping/customer service experience with ExtremeTextil?

[Stumphges]

Randy, yes, that is finished weight. This thread (https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/silnylon-tarp-fabric-deformation-seams/) has lots of info about. I can’t make out whether the conclusion was positive or negative.

[Sam Farrington]

You could buy the Slingfin tarp.  Or you could buy the RBTR 7D 6.6 with micro grid for much less.  Doubt if 7D vs 10D would make much difference.  But doubt you would like the  ‘hand’ of such light fabrics, as it would be very difficult to design a tent that would hold such a light silnylon taut in the wind and/or rain, not to mention snow and ice.

The Extrem Textil 20D silnylon is only .06 oz more per sq yard that a one oz fabric, but from posts on BPL, have concluded that this was accomplished with a loose weave; in other words, a low thread count.  You might not like that either in rough weather.

If you want a tent that buttons up and withstands nasty weather, including lots of ‘horizontal’ rain at altitude, you might want to reconsider using silnylon.  Testing shows that it definitely expands when damp; so it cannot hold a tent in a taut shape without extra guylines and shock cord connections, all of which add enough weight to make the differences between 10D, 15D and 20D irrelevant, or de minimus as lawyers say.

That pushed me to a 20D polyester, running less than 1.25 oz/sq/yd, and it will not wrinkle up and blow about, or worse, in a deluge.  Compared to a finished fabric one oz weight, that is less than a quarter oz more per sq. yard of outer tent.  So, one more oz gets you 4 square yards to work with.  A small price to pay when the wind begins to howl in waterworld.

Or you can go to DCF, as TarpTent did, and with much study, appears to have mastered the skills of DCF bonding and taut design.  A workshop on this was noted recently on BPL, if you’re ready for that.  I prefer the small bias stretch of polyester, as it helps the tent to hold its shape in windy and moist conditions, and does not wrinkle and go all flaccid.  After a major gust, it will snap back to shape immediately, not not hours later when dried out.

I’ve found that you cannot rely on specs from vendors, as roles of fabric can vary substantially. Some testing done for me shows that 1.24 oz finished weight silpoly I purchased earlier this year maintains 1500mm water column AFTER simulated aging, which based on numerous definitions seen on BPL, should be adequately waterproof.  And the bias stretch is enough to produce a taut canopy that will maintain its shape.   But will still use 6.6 silnylon for a floor, as if site selection is good, it will not get soaked, and will hold up better to abrasion and wear from being on the ground.

Just some thoughts before you put in some serious MYOG time.

 

[Moab Randy]

Thanks, Sam. The nylon vs. polyester question  is still a quandary for me. I’ve read lots about it and see knowledgeable and experienced people on both sides and my impressions still seem to weigh out without tipping the scales very much, but at the moment I’m still thinking silnylon.

If I were building a multi-paneled dome I might think otherwise, but for the particular tent I am trying to make (30″ high 1P “bivvy” with only two main stake points), the stretch-when-wet problem of silnylon may not be a concern–it should be easy to retighten the shape from inside the tent with a pull on one tightener. I don’t leave my tents standing during the day so I’m not too concerned about UV damage. I tend to avoid snow and ice. That leaves absorption.

I’ve received a yard of the ExtremTextil 20D sil/sil (service from Germany was fine) but haven’t had time yet to test it for seams, stretch, waterproofness etc.

Sam, is the silpoly you refer to the 1.1 oz (1.24 oz finished) from RBTR (https://ripstopbytheroll.com/collections/waterproof-polyester-fabric/products/1-1-oz-silpoly?variant=7943419457) ? I thought I read somewhere on this site (Steven Seeber?) some very low aged HH figures for that fabric, which scared me away. (Sorry I can’t provide the link.)

 

[Sam Farrington]

Randy,

It’s good to know that Extrem Textil is back in business with foreign orders, hopefully including the USA.  Thanks for that info.

Yes, the silpoly I mentioned was what they call “1.1 oz” (1.24 oz finished) from RBTR.  Stephen Seeber tested it with his latest set-up, and the ~1500mm result was after simulated aging.

You may be thinking of his post about the RBTR “membrane” silpoly that he tested, with aged results that were no better than DWR (durable water repellent, but not waterproof) used on windshirts and the like.  His results were posted on the gear forum.  On that post, he also reported a test of some membrane from another poster on the thread, and got much better results in the waterproof (water resistant, not just repellent) range.

That is what led to the conclusion that water resistance can vary markedly between the same products, even from the same vendor, and even between rolls produced at different times; so we cannot assume that a particular fabric from the same vendor can be relied on to have the same water resistance reported in earlier tests.  That is why I ordered enough yards of the RBTR silpoly “1.1” to be used for a tent and asked Steve to test it using samples from that order.

Also suggest that HH tests after an aging process are what matter most, and recall tests posted by Richard Nisley in the past that were OK on new fabric, but poor when he went back and tested after aging.  The aging involves machine washing before testing; but do not know the details of the exact protocol used by Stephen and Richard.  Regardless, the washing is intended to simulate only a few weeks of rain, and a fabric that loses waterproofness after such machine washing is not anything I’d want for an MYOG shelter, as it would not resist rain for long enough to justify the time and effort that went into making it.

One goal for the tent I’m working on is KIS (keep it simple), but as you mention, does involve different fabric panels for the vestibules and the canopy over the floor area.  I’ve found that the simpler the design, the less chance for glitches in construction; but even with that, acknowledge that a double wall tent with vestibules is going  to be both heavier and more complex than a single wall that is more akin to a tarp or bivy.

Years ago, I used a Gerry tarp modified to accept hoops to provide a simple tunnel shape.  Here is a photo:

The tarp also included awnings, not shown in the photo,  that came partially over the guylines that are visible on one end.  Even with the awnings in place, there was a lot of ventilation through the open front and rear of the tunnel, which was four feet wide at the base.  Yet there was a lot of  condensation that would collect on the lower insides of the tunnel, and the sleeping bag ended up wet.  That was the reason for the switch to double walls to keep dry.

Granted, you and others on BPL may seek the smallest and lightest, not to mention easiest to construct, shelters.  My goal for MYOG is a spacious solo tent under 30 oz, with an  outer fly covering just the occupied portion of the tent, but not the vestibules.  The smaller fly will provide an outer wall to collect condensation, not to mention added stability, yet be much easier to install in the wind than the typical monster flies which include the vestibules.   The 30 oz compares with under 20 oz for a single wall made with DCF or very light woven fabric with simple construction.

For me, staying dry with enough space to cook and eat in the rain is worth carrying the extra weight.  Hiking mostly in the Rockies and northern New England typically for 5-10 days at a time always seems to result in rainstorms, serious in the East because they are lengthy, and in the West because of the altitudes and open terrain that make shelters much more vulnerable to storms.  For a long time, I went out of the way to camp below timberline; but being able to stay on a high route and have secure and dry shelter in nasty weather is more enjoyable, and many would say, safer.  So guess it depends on one’s priorities.

Sounds like you have a way to keep your nylon shelter reasonably taut without excessive sagging.  However, after being hammered by wet weather for long periods in little space, you might find a few extra ounces are worth a great deal more comfort, convenience and safety.  Or perhaps you live in “Sunny Cal.”  Can’t recall even a drop of rain on the JMT (but plenty of shivering – the planet has been heating up though).

Granted also, that while we have had waterproof test results, courtesy of Stephen, the polyester tent fabrics have not yet proven how long and how well they will stand up to punctures, rips, abrasion and wear and tear in general.   Especially compared to nylon 6.6.  This is admittedly a risk to be taken in seeking to enjoy the benefits of alternatives to silnylon.

[Stumphges]

Sam, one difference I think I’ve observed between silnylon and silpoly (various silnylons compared to 20d RBTR sil/pu blend both sides) is that the 20d silpoly does not seem to recover as well from bias stretching stress. Where the silnylons spring back into shape after the deforming force is removed, the 20d silpoly is left a little puckered along the line of pull.

This could be due to the blended sil/pu coating not be as elastic as silicone, and/or polyester not being as  elastic as nylon, and/or me not applying equal force to the samples in my “tests.” It’s also possible that the observed deformation is not permanent and would settle out over time on a real tent panel subject to realistic (not so local) forces. I’m planning on taking a more methodical approach soon.

[Sam Farrington]

Stumphges,

Knew the silpoly was stiffer with less bias stretch, so am not surprised by your observations.  Am hoping that keeping the seams on the fabric grain, either parallel or perpendicular to the selvedge (edge of roll), that this will limit the wrinkling.  Also intend to design to keep the panels slightly stretched on the bias by the flexible poles.  Hope this is not the death knell for silpoly.  That would leave only DCF, as am totally done with silnylon’s inability to hold its shape in the wet.  Saw one photo of Roger’s with the silnylon tunnel panels cut on the bias, so the walls caved a lot.  But am not willing to cut way down on internal space by using this method.  The goal should be to design for increased internal space.

 

[Stumphges]

I wouldn’t put too much stock in what I’ve observed, especially if you’re using silpoly with sil/sil coating type. I would be more concerned with sil/PU coatings, as it seems to me that PU is less elastic than silicone. I have a pyramid tent with a nylon with sil outside/PU inside coating and have noticed a couple places that have deformed due to high local forces (e.g. near a curve at the top of the zip). I’ve never seen silnylon deform/pucker like this, so I assume it’s the inner PU coating that was stretched beyond its yeild point. This is an Aliexpress tent, albeit by one of China’s two most-respected tent companies, so the PU inner coating may not be representative of higher-quality TPU coatings on the market. Nevertheless, for a fly that is going to be tensioned on the bias, I do suspect a sil/sil coating would hold its shape better over time.

The elasticity of silicone is very impressive. I pulled the plug out of a dried dispensor nozzle from a tube of Permatex flowable silicone recently, and it was kind of amazing how far I could stretch it. It would snap back into a perfect positive replica of the nozzle each time.

I also have no idea where the available silpolys are in comparison to silnylons. Silnylon quality has improved greatly over the past 5-10 years. It was not long ago that silnylons available for MYOG, and even used by reputable tent companies, had very low hydrostatic head and stretched unduly (presumably due to low thread count). Nowadays, we can buy (at a premium!) fairly denslely woven nylon 6,6 fabrics with robust double silicone coatings. I have no idea where silpolys available now are on that spectrum.

One positive data point is Yama Mountain Gear, who use sil/sil poly on several of their designs that have pretty severe cat cuts, that I presume really crank tension on the bias.

[Sam Farrington]

Stumphges,

The RBTR 20D, 1.1 oz (1.24 oz fiinished) silpoly has tested out around 1500mm HH after simulated aging using a washing machine.  Granted, that is not as water proof as some of the silnylons, as you have pointed out.   But I’m comfortable with the 1500mm HH because it is after the aging.  It tests a lot higher new, in the range of the best silnylon coatings when new.

Agree about the sil on one side, PU on the other side coatings.  I have a couple of different older 15 D silpoly fabrics with coatings like that and they are so brittle as to be worthless.  Sil on one side and PU on the other was a bad idea.  RBTR has located polyester fabrics with a blend of sil and PU, primarily sil.  It is the coating used on both sides of most of their silpoly fabrics, and I”ve had no noticeable problems with the 20D silpoly mentioned above.

I do expect the 20D silpoly will not be quite as durable and strong as silcoated 6.6 nylon fabrics; however, for use on a tent wall do not see a problem.  For a floor that receives a lot more abrasion, but much less exposure to pounding rain, the sil coated nylon should do better if my experience is any guide.

As far as bias stretch is concerned, there is ample on the above silpoly, and it is observable just by hand stretching the material on the bias.  Try that with DCF.  So am not clear about the impression about bias stretch. It might be that the polyester has a stiffer ‘hand,” as it clearly does, compared to silnylons.  But when stretched on the bias, there is substantial give.  And I tend to think that may actually be an advantage in a tent wall compared, say, to a 7D silnylon canopy that I bet can be blown flat by high winds, not to mention the racket of the nylon flapping, especially when wet and wrinkled.

Granted, the light silpoly is a relatively new product, so there is more risk involved with it’s use.  Looked at the Syclone tent poles recently that Easton is making for MSR out of “advanced composites,” and are touted for their high flexibility.   What they don’t tell you is that a tent framework that elastic will more readily allow a tent to be blown flat in high winds, not to mention that the poles are considerably heavier than carbon fiber.  There are always risks of things being overlooked with new products, including quality control issues.  If silpoly fizzles, we’ll have to find something else for MYOG.

[Author]

Posts