Soaps and detergents

[Daniel F]

Hello everyone,

I recently have become dissatisfied with the popular standby, Dr. Bronner’s soap, which I otherwise quite liked because it was available in bulk as compared to outdoor-marketed products. I did some reading on the chemistry of soaps, and think it’s likely that there’s nothing wrong with it in particular, except for the key thing: it is true soap, i.e. via saponification of fats. Some side effects, like some residues, skin drying from alkalinity, and interactions with hard water, are simply facts about soaps.

Syndets

I think that synthetic detergents (a.k.a. syndet, among ‘soap’ makers) are closer to what is desirable. These are familiar, for example, the rather expensive but classic Camp Suds and the well-reviewed Seventh Generation Dish Liquid use sodium lauryl sulfate (SLS) as the primary surfactant.

Both soap and syndets are dangerous to aquatic life before they are biodegraded, hence the usual rules about water disposal. But common syndets still in use in the United States all biodegrade rapidly: I don’t see any indication that true soaps are thought to be superior in this regard.

After the surfactant itself, there are other additives that are less important for the outdoor application: dyes, fragrances, viscosity modifiers, foaming agents, clarifiers. These might have a bigger impact on responsible outdoor use, and are too numerous to reckon with generally.

I did notice that The Seventh Generation dish liquid does have the EPA “Safer Choice” seal, which, with a fragrance-free filter, only applies to twenty-five products in the dish liquid category, a feasible number for investigation.

I think this dish liquid a viable and economical alternative for outdoor use.

Being even more minimal

There are but a handful of major surfactant compounds:

• Sodium Lauryl Sulfate (SLS)
• Sodium Laureth Sulfate (SLES)
• Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate (SCI)
• Sodium Lauroyl Methyl Isethionate (SLMI)
• Sodium Lauryl Sulfoacetate (SLSA)

Some are easier to find in small lots (often for soapmaker hobbyists) than others. The most common in mass-market products are the first two, though concerns about sulfate bio-availability and contaminants in SLES have lead to some consumer bias towards some of the latter compounds. SCI is common but has difficult marketing chemistry in liquid soaps because it tends to precipitate out of solution and yields a non-transparent product.

I figure that outdoorspeople are more likely to overlook some of those issues, like low suds, opacity, or a thin solution, and prefer higher concentrations with less (or no) water in them. On one hand, you can cut a bit of weight, on the other, you might have more detergent available in a smaller space for, say, refreshing clothes. The most important property that’s still murky to me is solubility in cold water. This may require some practical experimentation.

The logical next step was to look into powders. SLSA and SCI are relatively easy to get. The sulfates are a bit hazardous to handle in dry forms.

The other thing I looked for was a retail powder. Most were for laundry, and unfortunately, all that I reviewed contained additional ingredients not ideal for outdoor usage. However, there was an exception: I found a general purpose, biodegradable, and it so happens, outdoor-targeted powdered detergent. It is sold wholesale, based on SCI: EcoSuds. I presume there are true retail products using it that I have not seen. As it turns out, the formulator made a video and is an avid backpacker herself. I have bought three pound pack of it to try it out. Worst case, I think it’d do fine in the laundry.

[JVD]

Interesting information. Thinking about it, though, I realize how little soap I use in the backcountry. Dr Bronner’s or sanitizer for hands and Dr Bronner’s once a day for private parts but otherwise just water. For dishes, I rinse with water and drink it, scrub with natural materials if necessary, and polish with a bandanna.

[AK Granola]

For what purpose do you need soap while backpacking? I also use very little, and the campsuds works fine and is convenient. Not expensive if you don’t use much.  I have yet to refill one teeny weeny tiny bottle, after many trips. I haven’t bought any in years. A drop or two to clean a pot, a few drops to clean hands or do a sponge bath or wash out a shirt. I don’t feel the need to be town-clean, me or my clothes. All used far from water sources. In such tiny quantities, the environmental impact seems minimal compared to driving my car to the trailhead. Or all the plastic shampoo bottles I use, for which I’ve not found an alternative. Good discussion though; maybe someone has something new and useful up their sleeve.

[Rex Sanders]

Cleaning scrapes and other wounds thoroughly with soap and water is a good idea. If soap is not normally on your gear list, a small slice of plain bar soap wrapped in plastic or wax paper might be a good addition to even the smallest first aid kit. Or a tiny dropper bottle of something like Dr. Bronner’s.

Or even a few grams of powdered safe-for-skin detergent.

— Rex

[Daniel F]

Hello all,

As for applications…

Besides a long-time amateur interest in chemistry (which was the most important factor), I decided to read about this for a few reasons:

I didn’t see it posted yet, and it seemed like it might be useful knowledge for those who are going where they will be using spring or well water, which is likely to be hard. A syndet should work better.

I was curious what is meant by “biodegradable soap” (or detergent) for quite a few years. I suppose the bottom line is: not the surfactant itself, at least in the US this side of the millennium. In the past there have been less biodegradable ones. The primary surfactant is generally the same or drawn from a small pool in all products, so it’s plausible you could simplify and have just one product, without losing anything in home use.

I go camping with my family. As a result, I use my supply of outdoor soap more rapidly, especially for dishes and washing multiple little hands. Even at the rate I use it, it’s not a major expense, but I chafe a little bit at buying tiny plastic bottles for this purpose. On one such trip where I brought Dr. Bronner’s, the water was hard, and it did not work so well, though I didn’t know why at the time. It got me thinking.

Another downside: I knocked over my Campsuds nalgene bottle filled with Dr. Bronner’s while it was open, and lost half of the contents instantly, even though I caught it right away. I guess viscosity modification may have application after all. Alternatively, perhaps this says something about the usefulness of pivot-top bottles, even if theoretically a screw-top nalgene is more leakproof. I think avoiding concern about leaks is something the EcoSuds powder formulator itemizes as being her favorite, putting aside that the detergent works well in a conventional sense.

Finally, I think it would be nice if refreshing the top baselayer were a bit more optimized and effective. Normally I don’t bother with soap at all for this. But maybe if it were easy and compact, I would. I guess I’ll find out how well it works.

[HkNewman]

Preface: Any soap shouldn’t go into waterways (wilderness, rural, etc..)

.. biodegradable

Isn’t most Dr B’s a Castile  soap and olive oil based?  Think they’ve added coconut oil, palm heart oil, etc.. now.   Having some get on the ground where it isn’t close and doesn’t drain into a watercourse should be relatively benign.

The stuff resists suds but I find it an excellent cleaner.

[Daniel F]

Yeah, nothing wrong with Dr. Bronner’s as true soap, and all surfactants are quite bad for marine life. It has no flaws except operation working with hard water. But if I preferred one cleaning agent for all sources, it’d be a syndet.

The base of syndets is often also some plant, generally coconut or palm or some other source of saturated fats, but that doesn’t necessarily mean much: the chemistry and biology of breakdown are what matter. It just so happens that detergents in common use also break down readily. So, if there are things that are hard to break down, it is additions.

I guess as a byproduct of my reading, it’s possible to get a sense of where ingredients fit together for soaps and detergents:

Unscented Dr. Bronner’s liquid: water, various saponified fats (a.k.a. classical soap, surfactant), glycerin (foamer), some un-saponified seed oils (probably as preservatives), citric acid (pH neutralizer), and Vitamin E (preservative).

Dr. Bronner’s Bar Soap: Saponified coconut, palm oil (soap, surfactant), Water, saponified olive oil (more soap), some seed oils (preservatives?),  Sea Salt (is this also for viscocity?), Citric Acid (pH neutralization), vitamin E (preservative).

I think from this, unless you like dispensing the liquid, you’re getting something much more concentrated but much the same from the bar.

Some syndet liquids:

Camp Suds: water,  Sodium Lauryl Sulfate (surfactant), Cocamidopropyl Betaine (secondary surfactant), Cocamide MEA (foaming agent), Sodium Chloride (viscosity modification), Oil Lemon Lime Blend (scent and/or preservative), Isothiazolinone (preservative).

Seventh Generation Dish Liquid: Water, sodium lauryl sulfate (primary surfactant), glycerin (foamer), lauramine oxide (surfactant, foamer, and anti-microbial), caprylyl/myristyl glucoside (yet another surfactant), magnesium chloride (viscosity), citric acid (pH adjustment), and benzisothiazolinone and methylisothiazolinone (preservatives).

A syndet bar: A historical note: Dove, introduced in 1955, is the first syndet bar. Among cosmeticians. synthetic detergents are thought to be gentler on skin than the classic soaps that came before.

Dove Sensitive Skin Bar Soap: the first ingredient is Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate, among the latest and greatest sulfate-free surfactants, after this there is a pretty interesting and long laundry list of surfactants and even a bit of regular soap. As usual, at the end, there are stabilizers and preservatives.

[AK Granola]

What is the ingredient in Dr Bronner’s that make it smell so strong? That odor is so offensive to me, not sure why. I cannot stand using it, and if others use a lot of it, they smell bad to me, worse than mild BO. I’m pretty sensitive to odors, so that is one reason I stick with the campsuds. It does have a smell, but it dissipates quickly.

[Daniel F]

There are many Dr. Bronner’s, with various essential oils and extracts. I use the unscented one. As far as I can tell (I have not stuck my face into it), it is odorless.

[AK Granola]

Even the unscented has a really strong odor to me. It’s whatever the soap is – not sure what ingredient has that strong scent. It’s a me problem – I’m sure most people can’t detect it!

[Daniel F]

Huh. Not sure what is all that volatile in Bronner’s. There are a couple of unsaponified seed oils and vitamin E even in the base formula. If you can tolerate other true soaps and/or glycerin, by process of elimination, I would suspect some of those. There could also be an impurity.

[DWR D]

So… without have to follow the chemistry logic puzzle…. which product (specific brand) is best for the environment???

[Jerry Adams]

or, is it that it doesn’t matter that much which soap/detergent, but don’t get it into streams

using a small amount and dumping on land away from streams is okay?

[Daniel F]

Re: brands. There’s a lot of similarity. I don’t really see any standardization of “biodegradable.” Harder-to-degrade syndets and bloom-causing phosphates are largely phased out in the United States for this kind of use. And you have to count the manufacturing byproducts in environment, which is harder than the ingredient label.

Personally, I question if the “biodegradable” marketing has much going for it in 2022 given tightening standards over fifty years. If you like liquid soap, consider an EPA “Safer Choice” one, like the Seventh Generation dish liquid, though many unoffensive-looking products have not been submitted for evaluation by EPA (like Bronner’s). My guess is bar soap is even more efficient in shipping and packaging, both in retail and in the field, as they’re carrying around less water in plastic containers. I have some interest in flakes or powders to try to get a bit of the best of both worlds, but maybe they’re obscure as general skin-compatible formulations for a reason.

Re: it not mattering much about what you use: that’s how I interpret the literature available, as long as you keep undegraded surfactant out of water bodies.

I would stay away from anti-bacterial soaps (e.g., containing triclosan). It seems more professionals recommend staying away from them generally, and I think some regulators are moving to restrict their use in mass application. It is thought their antibacterials promote resistance and there is barely, if any, measurable benefit over the mechanical action of surfactants while washing.

[W I S N E R !]

I probably use 15 drops of Dr. Bronner’s on a 5 day trip (away from water sources). An ounce will easily last me a season; 99% of my washing is done with water and a bandana. How much soap does one need? At a few drops per day, I could probably wash with gasoline to no ill environmental effect…

(Oh my, am I a barbarian?)

 

[HkNewman]

Dr B’s

.. strong scent

.. a few drops per day

Dr B’s is pretty concentrated so a few dabs will do most and all soaps are alkaline if I recall my basic chemistry (though reading that soap pH is limited to 8 for most regulations).  Dr B’s, being concentrated, is likely one of the stronger ones as they have “cutting” instructions if using it in a pinch for post-hike laundry, etc.. unless getting the “baby safe” formula.  Not sure that’s “no more tears” like J&J baby shampoo was marketed as.

 

[Mina Loomis]

Re: plastic shampoo bottles.  There are starting to be paper-wrapped bar shampoos on the market now.  No plastic bottle, not all that weight of water getting shipped around.  Work fine in my recent personal experience.

[YoPrawn]

I honestly never even thought about bringing soap with me backpacking. But, I’m also not a thru-hiker or someone who can carry more than 5 days of food weight, so dealing with that level of prolonged filth isn’t a concern. I also don’t cook any food, so no washing cookware.

Here’s what I use for keeping clean:

Before anyone gets triggered by the “that’s natural, everything natural is BS!” trope, tea tree oil has a long track record and the active ingredients have been identified and proven effective. It’s not BS

It has anti-bacterial and anti-fungal properties, and it’s actually very potent stuff. It can clean pretty much any material you could ever imagine from skin. Even really bad tree sap will just melt away with tea tree oil. I have a light, plastic container that I only need to keep a small amount of tea tree oil in. It’s very potent stuff and goes a long way. Care must be taken to not burn sensitive skin areas as prolonged contact without airing out can burn skin.

One aspect of why tea tree oil is a good do-it-all cleaner, is that is also can heal bacterial skin infections, even if they are pretty deep and progressed to oozing puss. I have been using the stuff for over 25 years now to treat literally every single skin infection I have ever had in that time. It just requires an application of the oil several times a day until it is gone. The oil somehow penetrates really deep into human skin from just a surface application.

The major downside is that it smells like hell though until it dries. But, on the other hand, mosquitoes also don’t like the smell and will stay away from it. I’ve used it many times for bug repellent in a pinch.

[Rex Sanders]

Summit Suds from Pika Outdoors is a powdered detergent with very similar ingredients to EcoSuds, just leaving out the zinc oxide apparently.

https://pikaoutdoors.com/products/summit-suds

Plus you don’t need to buy mass quantities. Also available through Garage Grown Gear.

— Rex

PS – They have an entertaining comparison to “soap with a PhD.” Hmmm, wonder which member of the Bronner family that might match?

[Matthew / BPL]

^that link mentions putting soap into a cathole.

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether that is a best practice or is it better to disperse the soap on the surface where sun light could break it down (does that happen?). Assume we are talking 200’+ from water in an area with sunlight like high mountains.

[Ratatosk]

There’s a constant tension in ultralight (and gear-oriented pursuits in general) between using what you have and buying more stuff that may or not be better. I’ll stick to Dr. Bronner’s; I use it in bulk in my house, and I can just fill a little drip bottle halfway up for a longer trip. In the Virginia mountains there’s sand everywhere, it’s a good abrasive cleaner. I do like to bring soap on longer trips; I got kicked out of a really nice restaurant in the Adirondacks one time because I smelled too bad coming off the water.

I do the “oatmeal coffee” method of pot-cleaning in camp, just drink hot water swirled around in whatever food residue is left, but wood ash is the most effective, most biodegradable cleaning agent I can think of. You’re basically making a really weak lye solution when you mix it with water (it’ll dry your hands out), but if you run a twig stove or have a fire it’s ready to hand and adding exactly zero to your footprint.

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