Primaloft like midlayer for under a Rain/Hardshell?

[Christoph Blank]

Hi there,

I’ve got a thin rain/hardshell jacket that I use for various activities, backcountry skiing, etc.
Depending on the temperature I usually take a R1 Air fleece or Rab Alpha Direct jacket with me.
However, sometimes even this is not enough in the Alps.

So I’m looking for a warmer midlayer to use under this jacket. It doesn’t need
I thought about primaloft or something similar and the Montbell Thermawrap seems to be quite good. There have been a few redesigns though, so I’m not sure. Is it warmer than the Rab Alpha direct or Patagonia Nano Air Light?

Can anyone comment on this jacket or recommend anything similar?
I don’t need a hood or weather resistant face fabric.

Thank you!

[Ian]

I like synthetic and down puffies as something to throw on in camp or on breaks.   For movement, I prefer wearing multiple layers of fleece to below freezing temps.

[Jerry Adams]

patagonia nano puff or micro puff

arc’teryx atom

the north face thermoball

etc.

I was just looking at rei.com for synthetic jackets.  I bet you could find ones at a local retailer.  They’re somewhat generic.  I don’t think it makes that much difference which one you get.

a synthetic like primaloft or apex will provide about twice the warmth at half the weight of fleece.  With the same property of maintaining warmth when wet.

down will give about twice the warmth as the same weight of synthetic, but only as long as you keep it dry.

I made my own synthetic vest.  Same idea.  I’m good down to about 0 C with a jacket.

 

[dirtbag]

I use.. my base layer is a Patagonia thermal weight hoody then a  Patagonia nano air hybrid hoody (discontinued), under my shell.. last trip i went on it was going to be single digit temps so i brought my Patagonia nano puff (no hood) in case i got cold and needed that insulation.  Sometimes i will use the nano puff vest instead of full jacket.. but weather was saying negative 11 degrees with wind chill.. so the jacket came!

I also always bring my down jacket.. but that is just for when i stop for a break, hanging around camp and early morning when packing up camp and i can throw that on over all of my layers!

[bradmacmt]

Good suggestions here.

I have both the Patagonia nano puff and micro puff… the micro puff is warmer.

But I prefer Montbell to any other brand if they have something that fit a need.

[Christoph Blank]

As mentioned, what I’m looking for is basically a midlayer under a thin shell jacket, that is warmer than a classic fleece or my Rab Alpha Direct jacket.

I think the Thermawrap UL could fit, but 40g is not too much, and I wonder how it compares to the Alpha Direct jacket, Nano Air or Atom LT…

I’m also a big fan of Montbell, their clothing is excellent.

[Ian]

I guess this where personal experiences may vary and some context from the OP would help.   Understanding that there’s wind involved, what sort of temperatures are you skiing in?  For me, skiing in a base layer, R1, and hardshell even to 0*f/-18*c, while moving, I would have to start venting my jacket to control moisture or perhaps swap it out for my wind jacket if conditions permit.

I always assumed that people were using jackets like the thermawrap, micropuff, and M-65 field jacket liner on breaks.  I’m honestly curious to know if people hike or ski while wearing them, and if so, what temps?

At any rate, I like the m65 field jacket liner for synthetic insulation although I can’t tell you how it compares to any of the others.   While I like it, I got rid of it because I never wore it while moving and I prefer down to keep in my pack and throw on during breaks and in camp

[Jerry Adams]

I was just out.

25 F in the morning – long shirt, synthetic vest, down vest, WPB jacket – for eating breakfast

took off the down vest when hiking and it got close to 32 F.  I’m a moderate hiker, no need to run.  I like to look around at things.

when it got above 32 F and more vigorous hiking I also took the synthetic vest off

[Mark Verber]

Yes and an appropriately insulating (e.g. not TOO much) works just fine under a hard shell.

For me, I use just thermal weight hoody + shell until until freezing.  Below that I have typically used some combination of synthetic and/or down vest and/or jacket. When it’s below freezing I have no problem managing my activity level (and how open my zipper is) to avoid overheating / sweating.  This year I started using a Patagonia Micro Puff Hoody and have been very happy with it.  In the past I have happily with some combination of a Montbell Thermawrap Vest,  Montbell Thermalwrap jacket, ArcTeryx Atom Jacket, Original Patagonia Puff Jacket, Montbell Ultralight Down Jacket, WM Flash Vest and/or WM Flash Hoody.  The one downsize is that none lasted as long as my fleece.

 

[Ian]

Thanks Jerry.   What synthetic vest are you using and how well does it compress when you throw it in your pack?

[Mike M]

The Rab Alpha Direct shows 120 g/m insulation, that’s fairly significant for a moving layer; contrast that to the Nano Air 60 g/m or the Nano Air Light 40 g/m.

What are you using for base layers?  In cold weather I switch from OR Echo (very light) to Patagonia Thermal Weight base layers.  My mid-layer is a Nano Air Light and if it’s windy then I add a windshirt over that.  Moving, I’m good to -10F or even lower.

At these temperatures I don’t bring a hardshell, a windshirt is more than adequate for whatever precipitation may come.

I’d look at boosting your base layers first, 120 g/m of insulation should keep a person warm moving (especially under a shell) to a very low temperature.

 

 

[Jerry Adams]

my synthetic vest is made with some light nylon inside and outside, I forget which, maybe 0.7 oz/yd2, and 2.5 oz/yd2 apex.  Full zipper #3.  4.5 ounces.

You probably meant what commercially available product : )

[Ian]

I forgot I blocked you.   You are now unblocked.

So I take it this is a MYOG item?   Compared to the international measurement unit, a Nalgene bottle, how small does it compress?

[Christoph Blank]

Regarding the temperatures, if I’m backcountry skiing (touring) I don’t have any problems. That’s similar to hiking with high outputs. I often combine this with resorts though, and if I’m sitting on the chairlift at -15C I feel it’s not enough – that’s the motivation for my question.
I realize the activity is slightly off-topic here, but the question is more about garment/insulation, and I know how many experts we have in this forum.

I just noticed that sometimes the Rab Alpha Direct (120gsm) was not enough. Baselayer is usually a kind of merino/synthetic shirt. The reason I’m looking for a jacket style layer like the Thermawrap is that they are usually cut a bit wider. I do have a Capilene and R1 Air, but they are not as comfortable to combine, size/fit-wise in contrast to just putting on a jacket like that.

I’m not sure in how far the different types of insulation mentioned (coreloft, primaloft, exceloft, alpha) compare in detail as this is very difficult to find.

And I assume it comes down to insulation weight, the candidates I have collected so far:

Thermawrap – 40g Exceloft
Atom LT – Coreloft Compact 60 (is that 60g?)
Proton LT – Coreloft™ Compact 80 (80?)
Patagonia Nano Air – 60g Fullrange

Kind of difficult to find the correct fill weights…

As mentioned, I do have a Rab Alpha Direct jacket, so for me it would be interesting how these options and weights compare to it.

[Mike M]

OK that’s different :)

I had an older Atom LT hoody and it was warm.  Too warm for an active layer, more like a mid-weight down jacket.  I’m pretty sure mine was Primaloft, looks like they’ve changed the insulation so unsure.

Too bad Nunatak quit making their Apex stuff- you could choose the exact weight Apex you wanted- I have both 2.5 and a 3.6 weight ones and both jackets are warm.  The 3.6 I use as a puffy when I’m elk hunting with temps to 0.

If the new LT’s are as warm as the old ones, I’d say that might be a viable option.

[Jerry Adams]

My MYOG Apex vest compresses down to maybe a Nalgene bottle, but I loosely compress it at the top of my pack in case I need it.  Synthetic’s weakness is that if you compress it, it shortens it’s life.

Nalgene bottle?  I used to use those.  Decades ago.  Now, probably only old people even know what those are : )

[Mike M]

^ they are still the preferred choice for winter outings :)

[William Chilton]

Too bad Nunatak quit making their Apex stuff- you could choose the exact weight Apex you wanted

@mtwarden Nunatak is making Apex stuff again.

[Mike M]

Oh- good news!  I know a bunch of folks that’ll be glad to hear that- thanks

[AK Granola]

I finally fell for a Patagonia R1 air fleece, just arrived. I hate it! It’s super rough feeling fleece, itchy on the inside, with big fat seams that don’t lie flat. I couldn’t believe how different mine is from the ones described here and in other reviews. I thought it would be something amazing given the popularity but it really feels like the cheapest fleece you can buy at a discount store, not soft at all. It is lighter than my current fleece that I have been using for 15 years (no visible wear and tear). But nowhere near as comfortable, although it does feel like it might be warmer. But I couldn’t stand wearing this for even 5 minutes.

Should I even bother to try the regular R1? Is it better? Has anyone tried both to compare? Sending this one back Monday.

[Steve H]

My Atom LT has been phenomenal – for years.  But like Mike M said, too warm if used as an active layer.

[SIMULACRA]

Should I even bother to try the regular R1?

Patagonia has changed this lineup so frequently I don’t know where it currently stands as “regular”. My circa 2018 R1 is the bees knees. They changed the weight in 2019 utilizing smaller fleece “squares” in certain areas. From my 2018 to 2019 version. I did not like the feel of the 2019. Sounds like they’re continuing on in the same direction

[Stephen Seeber]

The R1 air is a totally different product than the old R1.  I believe the original R1 was a Polartec grid fabric.  That means it is a knit and a fairly loose knit at that and the warmth comes from the napping process that grinds the knit fibers and gives them loft.  The R1 air is a woven fabric. It appears to be napped and in the process receives a wavy pattern in the loft.  I have not tested this fabric for permeability or wicking, so I really don’t know how it performs.  I am guessing it has higher air permeability and less thermal resistance than the original R1. The photo I saw suggests that the portion of non-napped surface is greater than original R1,  which is why I expect it will have less warmth than the original R1.   It is an approximately 5.7 oz/sq yd fabric.  Sort of the lower end for fleeces.  Here is a closeup of the fabric.

I would guess the R value will be .5-.6.  So, half the warmth of  Micro puff and much less wind protection than the micro puff.    So, what Jerry said above seems about right.  Micro puff is about 4 oz lighter.  Pat Nano Puff R value is about .76, last time I measured one.  It is a few ounces heavier than the Micro Puff due, in part,  to heavier fabric.

[Erik H]

Do you have the r value or clo of the nano air hoody? Thanks

[Mike M]

and the Nano Air Light while we’re asking :)

[Author]

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