Plastic nanobits in bottled water….

[DWR D]

Part of CNN article:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/08/health/bottled-water-nanoplastics-study-wellness/index.html

In a trailblazing new study, researchers have discovered bottled water sold in stores can contain 10 to 100 times more bits of plastic than previously estimated — nanoparticles so infinitesimally tiny they cannot be seen under a microscope.
One liter of water — the equivalent of two standard-size bottled waters — contained an average of 240,000 plastic particles from seven types of plastics, of which 90% were identified as nanoplastics and the rest were microplastics, according to the new study.

[Brad W]

I am more worried about the massive amounts of hormone disrupting chemicals we are digesting everyday from the plastic. Not that I want microplastics in my stomach either.

[Monte Masterson]

Not to mention what all the discarded plastic bottles do to the environment. We’re awash with plastic in every facet of our lives and most of it will end up in landfills or oceans. Yet there’s no real concerted effort to cut down on the staggering amounts of plastic packaging Americans generate each day…..little of which gets recycled.

[Jerry Adams]

good article, thanks

like it says, those plastic particles contain hormone disrupting chemicals – phalates and so forth

also, the polymers that plastic are made of may be a problem

it will be difficult to figure out if the small amount of hormone disrupting chemicals adversely affect our health.  Do they increase the incidence of cancer?  Does it cause children to have puberty earlier?  (there has been such a trend in recent years)

it’s kind of weird that food manufacturers can put anything they want into our food until someone else proves they’re dangerous.  It seems like they should have to prove stuff is safe before putting it into our food

we have the best government money can buy

now, we can hijack this thread and talk about, I forget, what were we talking about?

[jscott]

 

“it will be difficult to figure out if the small amount of hormone disrupting chemicals adversely affect our health.”

Nanoparticles and AK47s are both widely available in the States.

Maybe we should begin with the low hanging rotten fruit.

[AK Granola]

I think occasionally about the plastic I ingest, since I re-use plastic water bottles for years before replacing them. I hate drinking from metal. At home I’ll use a glass, but kind of challenging at work. I tried to go plastic-free, to reduce the environmental damage, but how? Can’t buy meat, cheese, packaged foods, legumes, rice…pretty much anything. Even bulk bins get filled from large plastic packages. We are plastic people; it’s how we live.

When I resupplied from a gallon water jug on the Tahoe Rim Trail a few summers ago, I noticed a really nasty taste in the water; the jug had been sitting in the sun for a week before I picked it up. I had to disguise it with lemon powder to be able to drink it. But I had to drink all of it; it’s all I had for 2 days of hiking.

I figure I’ve lived a long and good life to date. I too am more worried about those AK-47s and their cousins, than a water bottle. But I’m sad for the environment we’ve trashed.

[jscott]

” But I’m sad for the environment we’ve trashed.”

there’s no question that plastics are a huge issue worldwide, perhaps especially in the ocean. Everyone loves Trader Joe’s including me. But the pre packaged in plastic food there is a real issue.

[DWR D]

We are plastic people; it’s how we live.

Yea… And the Romans said, how can we do without lead piping? And we all know how that turned out… :)

People talk about plastic being a problem for damaging ‘the environment… and they are thinking of the oceans, river, etc. Hey… our bodies are ‘the environment’ also… and plastic is now found in every cell in our bodies…

I often wonder at all the bad news in the world… people and governments seem to be looking for conflict around the world.. there is a new nastiness in the world these past 20 years or so… and seems to be accelerating… wondering why with friends, I have at times joked… must be ‘something in the water’… er… maybe it really is…

Historians look back and try to explain the fall of the Roman Empire… one of the explanations is that the lead water pipes drove them nuts…

I wonder if some time in the future Historians and anthropologists will look back and figure the seemingly unrestrained spread of chemicals drove us nuts… Decay of Empire…

 

[Jerry Adams]

“They” say that warm water in plastic leaches more chemicals out of it.  Cold water not as bad

If they made plastic out of plants such that it’s biodegradable, that would help.  They’re working on it

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

AK-47’s? Lol…what says you have never shot a rifle in the US. I mean get it right at least. That’s a commie rifle.

And btw, I pick up brass and we reload .223 so I am sooooo green it ain’t funny.

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

You have to make your choices in life. I quit urban life and moved to a rural place where I own my solo well. Had the water tested. When I lived urban, even though I knew exactly where my water started (Yakima Pass, Cascade Mountains, head of the Cedar River that serves part of Seattle – and yes I hiked to it, it’s on the PCT) the water was heavily treated, though it was quite clean to start off with. My water isn’t treated now. It’s pure and filtered through ancient rock. But city water…is so heavily treated.

At home we drink only out of US-made canning jars. Glass made in China? Nope. Not happening. I try to buy very little from China in general these days. Some you cannot avoid, of course.

We only cook in US-made cast iron pans and stainless steel at home. I prepare nearly all our food from scratch.

I grow much of our food, on our wind-swept land on this island. And I preserve it.

So when I travel….I honestly just do not care. To me it’s no different than when I eat out (which is rare now). I turn my mind off and just do not worry. If I use plastics then, so be it.

Because I lowered my use everyday to very little I can splurge all I want when traveling.

Having said that…for many people in the world just having clean water – in a freaking plastic bottle – is akin to winning the lottery. Where people still walk for miles daily to get water from a hole in the ground. That may contain parasites and animal waste.

So don’t get so bougie you forget that at least most days you have relatively clean water, that you can turn on and off 24/7.

It could be a LOT worse than nanoparticles. I fully understand just how privileged I am with my well.

But honestly, live the best you can and then don’t sweat it when you hike.

[Monte Masterson]

Makes me wonder about freezer bag cooking. Many will say that it’s perfectly safe but I just can’t bring myself to pour boiling water into a plastic bag. It can’t be good.

[Dustin V]

The article says the study didn’t track the source of the plastic bits. I have to wonder what percentage comes from the manufacturing process compared to the bottle breaking down. That might help answer the question of whether it’s better to refill or even how long a bottle should be reused.

[Jerry Adams]

you can easily adapt freezer bag cooking – just pour your food into the pot you boiled the water in to avoid hot water in plastic

“they” don’t know the affect of this.  Our bodies purge those hormone disrupting chemicals pretty good, I read.  I just try to do some obvious things like putting hot food in glass, not plastic.  Then don’t worry about it.  Good they’re studying it more.

 

 

[Terran Terran]

If you’re going to have sympathy for gun victims, you need to be fully educated in calibration? 🥴  I don’t get it.

We’ve gone from lead to plastic. I still don’t use hot tap water to cook. A habit from the time of lead solder. Avoid what you can. Don’t worry about the rest.

[AK Granola]

Seems obvious that using “AK47”is just a metaphor for the widespread mass killings across our angry and violent nation.  Not a reference to a specific type of weapon. Unrelated to actual experience or knowledge. As a culture we love guns more than people. And we love plastic as well. These things are part of our identity and won’t change without some cataclysmic event. Changing one’s personal lifestyle may feel good but has little impact.

[DWR D]

“A habit from the time of lead solder.”

I would guess that the vast majority of homes still have lead soldered pipes… because most homes are pre-no lead solder allowed.

The newer homes are using PEX plastic pipes …

And… most cities have been installing plastic water pipes under the streets for decades…

And… house as well as backpacking water filters use plastic membranes… long gone are the paper water filters….

You really can’t escape it…

 

 

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

Come on man, know your audience if you’re going to go off topic. Like….if you are talking to USA people, know what is common. And I called that out. Ya’all don’t have a sense of humor to say the least.

Anyhow, since someone above brought up freezer bags, I will reply with this: Most people only go out once or twice a year, at most, for a night or two. Few hikers are actually thru-hiking. If you choose to use plastics on those days, that are of food-grade plastic – and yes, rated for heat – it’s not a big deal. Cooking on non-stick pans the other 363 days a year is far, far more concerning.

If you live in a modern home I can nearly guarantee your pipes are plastic. Get in your crawl space and look. It’s right there, in front of you! I have a walkable crawl space with 7-foot ceiling, and I can see every pipe that comes down from above and out to the septic field, or from the wellhouse. I have installed with my husband a lot of irrigation pipes going to many hose faucets in fields, and you lay plastic pipes in the channels. Then the entire irrigation is plastic in our fields. The only metal parts are the actual frost-proof hydrants! The plastic is buried so is in theory safe from the cold. Well, not in your house during deep freezes….but that’s a whole different topic.

But at the end of the day: I have running water. And that is a lot more than most of the world’s population has. I don’t spend 2 hours a day getting water. I don’t drink water full of fecal matter.

And I know the difference between a AK-47 and an AR-15. And can shoot both of them on target.

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

Also, on saying America loves plastic….that isn’t true. I have been to so many places that love single use plastic so much more than we do. Asia and South America are scary in their love of plastic. They wrap hot food in trash bags literally, carrying even soup in bags. And it’s often everywhere, littered. Overall in the USA we have as a nation gotten pretty good at cleaning up and not filling our rivers with trash (though a few areas do have issues for sure). But yeah…..we are not the worst. By any means. Please do not claim we are without going to India.

[Jerry Adams]

Yeah, eating out of freezer bags a few days a year isn’t going to hurt you.  It isn’t clear what the risk is from eating out of it all the time.

I went target shooting a while ago.  At state land near Seattle.  Several other groups.  Every group had at least 2 ar-15s.  Those things are loud.  And the shock wave rattles my stomach.  My frail 69 year old arms had a hard time holding it steady.  I fired one round.

[jscott]

Sarah…you seem to be suggesting that since India is far worse about plastics and pollution, we should stop worrying about our own consumption practices.

and that’s the road to hell that we’re on.

I suppose India also has more extreme poverty than the U.S.. I live in the U.S.. I’m going to go on talking about poverty and the environment in the U.S.. I can’t do anything about conditions in India.

I’m not looking to get into a race to the bottom, environmentally speaking, when there are so many good things happening and more on the horizon. Sarah, of course you aren’t suggesting that!

[Dan]

The article says the study didn’t track the source of the plastic bits. I have to wonder what percentage comes from the manufacturing process compared to the bottle breaking down. That might help answer the question of whether it’s better to refill or even how long a bottle should be reused.

Yes, in fact, the vast majority of the nanoplastics were not PET, which means they did not shed from the bottles. In the article, they mentioned that the PET particles were mainly microparticles, much larger and generally believed to be less dangerous because they are not taken up by cells.

So the source of all of these non-PET nanoplastics in bottled water still needs to be traced. It’s possible that they come from various processing steps (filtration, filling, etc), or possibly even present in the source water. Most bottled water is not pristine spring water. It’s strange to me that they didn’t do control experiments with tap water from various locations, seems like an obviously important comparison. Because laypeople reading about the findings from reports in mass media (instead of reading the primary research article) will interpret these results as an indictment of water in plastic bottles, when in fact the packaging may be incidental (i.e. similar nanoplastics might be in glass-bottled water).

[Not defending disposable plastic water bottles, BTW. They’re obviously a major problem for many reasons.]

[Brad W]

@Jerry Adams Check out the podcast with Dr. Shanna Swan with Joe Rogan. Your viewpoint on plastics will be changed and not for the good. From the first I.V. tube inserted at birth we are forever altered by the chemicals in plastic.

[Jerry Adams]

thanks Brad

good video.  I’m not normally a fan of Joe Rogan, didn’t he push alternate covid cures like ivermectin?  Anyway…

That sounds like pretty good studies that dr shanna swan did – rats and humans, repeated the human study, higher phalates in human mothers correlated with size of their children’s penises and their sperm count.

Like Dr. Swan said, this is just one cause.  At the same time that human mothers were exposed to phalates, they were exposed to other things.  It’s possible those other things are a bigger factor.

What you really need to do is randomly assign human mothers to either phalates or control, then study their children, but that wouldn’t be ethical.  But she did do that with rats so the evidence is pretty good.

Maybe phalate damage is limited to mothers that have children?

I’m convinced.  I only use plastic in limited amounts with cold food, but I eat some canned food which is plastic lined and the food is heated.

I wonder if you get get canned food in glass jars, that would be better.

I guess that contradicts the claims that low sperm count is caused by feminization of culture and you can fix it by exposing your genitals to UV :)

 

[Terran Terran]

I guess that would save weight.

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