MSR has a new tunnel tent – the TindHeim

[Jon Solomon]

That’s a pity. Without those compromises, the tent will never make it into production.

[edited – MK]

[Roger Caffin]

You are probably right.
Am I more motivated by the lure of commercial production or by the desire for perfection in anything with my name on it? You may guess.

Cheers

[Jon Solomon]

I admire your fidelity to perfection, Roger.

Maybe, just maybe, however, the acceptance of a compromise in the early stages — enough to get the tents into production — would lay the groundwork for perfection at a later date. Once a watered down design has earned commercial success, might it not be a whole lot easier to develop a parallel, elite product line that truly conforms to your standards?

From the UK Design Council:
Perfection: the inventor’s greatest enemy

From the Financial Times:
Good enough is better than perfection

I think that your tunnel tents are neat and as a shelter junkie I’m jonesing to see them brought to market.

[Jon Solomon]

For those forum members or visitors who are not fully versed in Roger’s innovative tent design, this web page is an excellent place to start:

DIY – My Designs – Summer Tents

[Nick Gatel]

“Maybe, just maybe, however, the acceptance of a compromise in the early stages — enough to get the tents into production — would lay the groundwork for perfection at a later date. Once a watered down design has earned commercial success, might it not be a whole lot easier to develop a parallel, elite product line that truly conforms to your standards?”

I suppose it would depend upon what the compromise is. Let’s say the goal is a tent that can withstand 70 mph winds. To me, compromising to only being able to handle 35 mph wind would be unacceptable. On the other hand, increasing the weight by 16 ounces to meet all the performance goals and keeping the price point lower might be reasonable.

I have seen backpacks where the manufacturer states the lifespan is one long through hike, in order to make it lighter and cheaper. IMO, that is undesirable outcome. I always look for weight, durability, function, and price when selecting backpacking equipment. As a consumer I usually have to compromise at least one of the four, sometimes two. Usually weight and durability are not complimentary. Less weight, less durability.

[Roger Caffin]

Maybe, just maybe, however, the acceptance of a compromise in the early stages — enough to get the tents into production — would lay the groundwork for perfection at a later date.
I sympathise, but I disagree.

In my experience, once you have made some compromises (in order to get into production) reversing those compromises is almost impossible. You will be pressured into making more compromises, to increase sales and decrease production costs. It can be a nightmare. I do not want to go there.

If I was designing mousetraps, your arguments would be quite reasonable. But tents (and moon launches) are different. I am not normally in a situation where, if the tent fails in a storm, we can retreat the next morning. Not only do I expect my tent to survive the night; I expect it to survive the next few weeks of the same weather. Plus – I expect it to provide me, and more importantly my wife! with an adequate degree of comfort. If you are going to do extreme trips, you NEED to be able to relax overnight.

On that trip, when we realised that further progress, or even just moving, was imprudent (1 m visibility, cornices etc), I was able to pitch the red tent in the full confidence that we would be safe and comfortable overnight. We were.

Yes, I have read the article by the UK Design Council. Their rosy predictions strike me as being a bit too academic and rosy. Or maybe suitable for mousetraps. The FT article was paywalled. And I agree with Nick.

Cheers

[Jon Solomon]

Nick, I think the (sad) truth is that extreme wind resistance is not very high on people’s list of desirables, which is largely driven by marketing, group think, and influencers today.

I mean, even here, I’ve seen relatively scant interest in my experiments with an octagonal mid expressly conceived to be a lightweight wind specialist shelter option.

By contrast, the interest in lightweight designs that aren’t specialized for extreme weather is very high. Most people will be happy with the ability to handle 40-50 mph gusts without catastrophic failure.

Obviously, the compromises being contemplated here concern cost and weight, not performance. (Specifically, the use of alloy poles was discussed above).

It’s easy to shoot an idea down without giving it a try while resting in the purity of the unrealized and unrealizable Platonic Idea. I was just trying to be helpful and encouraging but I can now see the futility of that discussion. I won’t bring it up again. By the same token, criticisms of other manufacturer’s products, none of which are perfect but do have the inestimable advantage of being available in the mundane world of mortals, don’t mean all that much.

[Roger Caffin]

that extreme wind resistance is not very high on people’s list of desirables, which is largely driven by marketing, group think, and influencers today.
Well, not sure about that. I suggest that the users’ expected environments would have a lot to do with it.

the purity of the unrealized and unrealizable Platonic Idea.
Not sure any of that applies to my tunnels? They have not only been realised, but extensively field-tested.
But not, as you say, commercialised (yet). A pity.

my experiments with an octagonal mid expressly conceived to be a lightweight wind specialist shelter option.
Pictures! And weights too. Please? Field tests? Details?

Cheers

[Jon Solomon]

Symmetrical Octagonal Mid by Tipik Tentes 

I have since had another one made in 10D silnylon without the monolite skirts and monolite double door that weighs 373g with linelocs and lines on the 8 perimeter tieouts.

Here is a photo of the 10D one

The current dimensions won’t work for people over 175cm, I think.

I’ll be using it more extensively this summer. I haven’t had as much chance to test it as I would like because I’ve been very preoccupied by renovating an old apartment that my wife and I bought last year as well as completing a book manuscript for publication.

I am thinking also about a two door version and a snow version with snow flaps.

[Nick Gatel]

“It’s easy to shoot an idea down without giving it a try while resting in the purity of the unrealized and unrealizable Platonic Idea. I was just trying to be helpful and encouraging but I can now see the futility of that discussion. I won’t bring it up again. By the same token, criticisms of other manufacturer’s products, none of which are perfect but do have the inestimable advantage of being available in the mundane world of mortals, don’t mean all that much.”  <bold mine, NG)

Please don’t feel the conversation isn’t worthwhile. It is. These kinds of discussions are food for thought, often leading to advantages/disadvantages of product features and benefits that many people would not have been aware.

[Nick Gatel]

Nick, I think the (sad) truth is that extreme wind resistance is not very high on people’s list of desirables, which is largely driven by marketing, group think, and influencers today.

I mean, even here, I’ve seen relatively scant interest in my experiments with an octagonal mid expressly conceived to be a lightweight wind specialist shelter option.

By contrast, the interest in lightweight designs that aren’t specialized for extreme weather is very high. Most people will be happy with the ability to handle 40-50 mph gusts without catastrophic failure.

Obviously, the compromises being contemplated here concern cost and weight, not performance. (Specifically, the use of alloy poles was discussed above).

Many years ago I was on a weekend trip with four other people. Weather forecast was so favorable that I didn’t bring a shelter. The other four did. Two popular UL tents for the two least experienced hikers, tarp shelters for the two other experienced guys. We had an unexpected wind storm, with gusts of up to 50 mph. The two UL tents collapsed and those two got very little sleep, especially after trying to set up their shelters a couple of times. The tarps survived. In the morning, my air pillow was 100 yards away. I slept okay, good thing there was no rain.

When I think of uncompromising equipment makers, Dan McHale comes to mind. He builds custom backpacks, custom being what he is willing to make. He will not make a frameless pack. His other requirements mean the lightest pack he will build won’t be popular with the UL, spreadsheet driven hiker. The most common remark I see is, “I would like to buy one, but it costs too much.”

This “costs too much” was a common feedback back here in 2010 when I was considering a full Dyneema McHale, which was over $1,200 at the time. It has been my go-to pack for most trips since then. I suspect that many of those who felt it cost too much may have spent more money on several packs during the past 10+ years.

[Nick Gatel]

Out of interest, I went to the REI website to view backpacking tents. REI might be a good indicator of the market — they are selling what sells well, plus what is the least like to fail due to “user error. ”

There are 88 “backpacking” tents. 57 freestanding, 20 semi-freestanding, 11 non freestanding. 80 are 3 season, 5 are 3-4 season, and 3 are considered 4 season. So, 90% are 3 season tents. This is what people buy, not necessarily what they might actually need.

[Jon Solomon]

I was lucky and got my full spectra McHale packs at the beginning of the 2000s. I paid $450 for a full spectra plug and go S-Sarc (80L) with the bypass harness and all the fixings, plus a ton of different size stays and stuff, and $350 for full spectra fastpack (45L) with what Dan called “spring aluminum” stays.

They are great packs. Given the price those packs would command today, I feel embarrassed to say in public that I like my Seek Outside packs better, but only just a little bit better.

Anyway, I do appreciate your points, Nick, and the positive vibes.

[Bill Budney]

Please don’t feel the conversation isn’t worthwhile. It is.

^^– This.

I am new-ish to BPL and have been catching up on old threads. The discussions here are amazing.

I have camped all over North America and tend to buy general-purpose gear when I can, rather than owning a dozen shelters for a dozen situations. In the past that has led me to double-wall free-standing tents because they work well in most conditions that I encounter.

However, the appeal of owning a bomber tent for stormy weather is appealing. Even better if the same tent could be light enough to carry anywhere.

What then? Tunnel, pyramid? And how to get one if I cannot sew? Commercial options seem heavy; they don’t fit well with my general-purpose philosophy. Options mentioned here are fascinating.

Roger has some amazing designs. He could easily build an entire company around them, if he really wanted to. Or earn a respectable retirement income by licensing to established manufacturers. I get the impression that commercial production isn’t important to him, but I don’t know.

Please keep talking. I doubt that I am the only lurker who has little to contribute to the discussion, but really enjoys following it.

EDIT: I also appreciate Jon’s concept of community design, and hope to see more of his work in production. GitHub for MYOG-ers.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Jon

Thank you for the nice photos. Very helpful.
Some questions if I may.

I see that the door opens to the peak. How do you cope when it is raining 1″ per hour? Half the tent floor would surely get very wet when you open the door? We do get stuff like that here in Oz. At least the Tindheim has a vestibule clear of the floor.

I gather there is no bathtub floor? In heavy rain this could present a few problems? I remember one time in heavy rain when the bathtub floor in my blue tunnel tent was actually floating in about 1″ of water. We stayed dry.

Cheers

[Jon Solomon]

While there are people who use this size octagonal mid for two, I use it exclusively as a 1P shelter. It would be great for 1P + dog, but since Yuki passed away in Taiwan, I don’t travel with a canine companion anymore.

The sleeping area depends on whether a DPTE is being used. In the DPTE configuration, the sleeping area is directly in the middle to benefit from the long diagonal. Since the door doesn’t go all the way to the top, in practice this means that the sleeping area does not get wet during entry and exit. In the single pole configuration, the sleeping area is located predominantly on the other half of the floor area away from the door, so again no wetness on the sleeping area during entry and exit.

The storm resistance so far is fabulous. Much better than a rectangular mid. I’ve used the DCF version in the horrendous torrential rain and hail storms typical of the Pyrenees in summer. I don’t know what the wind speeds were. I only bought a Kestrel anemometer last year and I wonder if I’ll really bother to pack it given the extra weight. Yet I was deeply impressed by the storm resistance and particularly stability in strong winds compared to a rectangular mid. The design improvements and change to siliconized fabrics on the newer models (30D silpoly and 10D silnylon) have improved resistance even further. I don’t see how I could get my hands on a more wind resistant shelter at this weight.

I do prefer to use a bathtub floor. I updated the other thread to which I linked above today, the one that is dedicated to the octagonal mid design. It now includes photos of, among other things, several options I’ve used for the inner, all of which have bathtub floors. I consider them essential.

[baja bob]

This takes care of the coverage for the door for my mid. A lot of mid tent makers make inner tents with bathtub floors. Or use a half-inner and half the tent is a vestibule.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Nick

REI . . . There are 88 “backpacking” tents. 57 freestanding, 20 semi-freestanding, 11 non freestanding. 80 are 3 season, 5 are 3-4 season, and 3 are considered 4 season. So, 90% are 3 season tents. This is what people buy, not necessarily what they might actually need.
Just so.

Mind you, I cannot agree that the REI ‘4-season’ tents really are that. Yes, you could use them in winter, but I suggest not under severe conditions.
TNF Assault: single skin, with a vestibule which would fly away in bad weather. And it is heavy.
MH Trangos: the poles are attached to the inner tent by 1000 clips. What a hassle – especially in a storm. Getting the fly securely in place in a high wind could be amusing (for a given definition of ‘amusing’.)
Exped Orions: possible, although hooking the inner to the fly and poles would be a chore. I tried something like that once, and only once. The weight is even higher.

Nails flag to mast: if the poles are not threaded into the fly, it is not a true mountain tent, for use in a storm. If the poles are long, they will collapse. Yes, I know I am being difficult. But I have been there.

Cheers

[baja bob]

Roger, have you ever seen a Stephenson Warmlite tent or have an opinion regarding those tents? The two larger sizes, 3R and 5R, can be set up with 3 poles though they the tents have no guy outs.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Bob

Yes, I did at one stage have a recently-made 2R. I was ‘not amused’.

The sewing was very poor (really), there was zero vestibule space, there were no guys for side winds, and the whole thing was critically dependent on a single windward anchor. And there was very little space inside it for 2 people.

The doorway was weird, with two sets of zips for no apparent reason. I suspect the original design had a reason for them, but that the reason had been lost.

Sorry, but not impressed.

Cheers

[Author]

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