Inflatable Sleep System Concept

[Tony H]

Dear Light Backpackers,
Hello group! I was recently looking for a product for winter camping, which would keep me warm and comfortable even in blizzard conditions, but could not find quite the right product. Looking back at the archives, the closest thing to what I imagined was the Cocoon 4 Extreme from the early 1990’s, which is no longer available (and very expensive). I like that it had everything you need in one package – tent, mattress and sleeping bag combined.
I got to thinking there might be a gap in the market for an inflatable sleep system, using modern materials.
So my questions to your mighty hive-brain:
1. Is there any interest in such a system, or is this too ‘niche’ to be a viable opportunity?
2. If yes, what are the major concerns of buying an inflatable sleep system (e.g. weight, robustness, price, etc.)?
3. If possible, can you roughly quantify these concerns (max. weight = x, max. price = y)?

Your responses would be extremely useful to me as I evaluate the project, so thanks so much in advance for your assistance.
Tony.

[Ken Thompson]

One of those Cocoon shelters was for sale here a few months back. Interesting concept,but no. Super expensive piece of kit.

Too niche in an already niche area of interest. Two reasons why something like this is not currently on the market, not interesting to the target audience for a variety of reasons, doesn’t work/too limiting.

[[ Drew ]]

You might get some practical advice if you’re able to contact the maker/designer of the Cocoon system.  That their system is discontinued says much about whether it was a viable product, but things do change so you never know.

I think the crux of the project lies in this statement:

” I was recently looking for a product for winter camping, which would keep me warm and comfortable even in blizzard conditions”

Unless it is a very, very elegant design, it sounds like it’d end up being something very, very heavy compared to something like a pyramid shelter (or tunnel tent) + R5 (or greater) sleeping pad(s) + -10/-20* quilt or bag, which would be the LW backpacker’s go to kit in blizzard conditions.

Something like a Cocoon system seems to be a better fit with the alpine mountaineering/arctic/antarctic expedition community – which immediately shrinks the market way down for such a product.

 

Edit:

Just gonna leave this here…

 

 

[Matt Dirksen]

I vaguely remember the Cocoon back when I worked at REI. We didn’t sell it (other than special order), but some folks talked about it a bunch. The fundamental problem that many of us saw back then (and I see today), is the risk one inherits when adjusting the air chambers and hoping to G_d that they don’t ever leak. If I recall, the valves were temperamental on the thing, and would potentially freeze shut, thus eliminating the ability to regulate the heat.

Furthermore, in a blizzard situation, I (like many others, I assume) would much prefer having several tools that were each very good at what they did, than relying on one singular tool that tried to be good at many things.  (i.e. bombproof shelter, sturdy sleeping pad(s), and a very good sleeping bag). And I doubt that air-inflated mattress will ever truly compete with the insulation properties of ccf foam at sub zero temps. It certainly wont compete with it’s durability. (Sadly, we will never know until the pad manufactures test their pads at sub zero temps before proclaiming their R values to the consuming public.)

Regardless, the concept seems downright risky, especially when failure could mean frostbite to death.

[Tony H]

Thanks so much for this feedback, it’s super helpful.
Drew – Early calculations suggest we could make a viable system weighing sub-3kg (7 lbs), which may or may not be attractive to the lightweight backpacker community, but it certainly appeals to me. Btw, great picture – I always wondered what a caterpillar’s sphincter looked like! :) What brand is the bag?
Matt – a good point about risk to life. As an ex-diver, I know the kit used for controlling buoyancy is made to be as bulletproof and fault-free as possible, which does make it heavy. Perhaps there could be a heavyweight bombproof version for actual arctic conditions, and a lightweight version where risk to life is low. But I agree, some thought will need to be put into redundancy, in terms of staying alive when things go wrong. Valves freezing shouldn’t be a problem if we engineer them properly. It’s exactly this kind of feedback that is so helpful.
The insulation properties of foam vs an inflated pocket would have to be tested; I started from the premise that goose down works by trapping air, so if air is used on its own, and the losses via convection are managed, it should be toasty. Durability is in a fairly direct correlation to weight, so pragmatic decisions would have to be made.
Thanks again for your input, I’m really interested in the opinions of this forums members, which is steering the design thinking already!

[Roger Caffin]

Blow up with air? Then the fabric has to be air-tight. That means it would be like sleeping inside a plastic bag. Have you ever tried doing this? I thought not. Yes, I have tried it – once.

You can use a VBL inside a SB or quilt, but it needs to be about -20 C before it is safe – and you need to be sleeping very cool as well. Above that, your ‘insensible perspiration’ is going to turn the insides into a goldfish bowl – wet!

Sometimes Real Life is just not compatible with the latest Bright Idea.

Cheers

 

[Tony H]

Hi Roger,
That’s a great point. The original Cocoon 4 design relied on regulating the body temperature to avoid getting too clammy. But in such a vapour barrier system, a degree of moisture is expected (though interestingly the body absorbs as well as expels moisture through the night).
For this new system, I would try and move away from the clammy sleeping conditions – it’s a tough sell to convince folk that moist is ok, and I frankly don’t like the idea of it. I have a couple of ideas on ventilation, which should make for a more comfortable sleeping environment.
Great that we’re thinking about the same issues! If all the concerns can be identified early, the engineering becomes much more straightforward.

[Jennifer Mitol]

did anyone ever buy that FF sleeping bag?  i wondered where it went….

[Franco Darioli]

Tony,

Take a look at this :

http://www.mikeott.ch/wordpress/products/?lang=en

a different way of trying to solve the same problem.

Some of the ideas used in that may help you out.

BTW, if you have not already seen this , here is more info on the Cocoon than I have seen anywhere else :

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/101990/

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

What is not adressed, is in what way there is a real market for it (so not just people that talk about it but actual buyers) ? The engineering side might show to be solved, but did you research if there is a business case ?

[Tony H]

Hi Franco,
Thanks for this info – I like aspects of this concept. I think it’s a new product, so will be interesting to see how it does.

Hello Woubeir! Polling users of outdoor equipment is my initial market research, which is why I posted on this forum. The more opinions I can get, the better an idea I will have if this is could succeed. And the engineering is far from solved!! This exercise is also about gathering information about features and specifications that are required, which will dictate what needs to be engineered. At the moment I’m just trying to talk to as many relevant people as possible!

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

I see. Then might I suggest that you (let) change the title because:

1. now it’s not a question
2. it says only that it is/should be inflatable, but actually that’s it. It should perhaps say that it’s an inflatable system that combines shelter, sleeping bag and pad in one package ? Now, I would say there is just too little response for you too be of any value.

[Tony H]

Hi Woubeir,
Perhaps you’re right, though I did allude to the inflatable system, which has tent, mattress and sleeping bag combined in the OP. Let’s see what other responses come down the line…
But while you’re here, would you buy such a system? If not, why not? If so, how much would you be prepared to pay?

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Well, no. Why ? Versatility. I want to be able to combine e.g. my shelter with the bag and/or pad that I think is the best suited for the conditions I expect.

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