Hey, Craig, what about those shoes?

[Diane Pinkers]

Over in Chaff, Craig Wisner mentioned that he had cycled between minimalist shoes and more supportive shoes, and that he had some observations/opinions on the use of either type of shoe. I have been wearing minimalist shoes both at work and on the trail for several years now.  Recently, my left foot has been swollen, the arch may have dropped or become swollen, I have pain both on the top of my foot, running up to the ankle, and pain at the front of my arch.  It appears that I have a tendinitis on the top of my foot, possibly caused by frequent kneeling/compression on hard floors at my job.  However, right now, the minimalist shoes are not helping, and I’ve had to transition to more of an arch support than I generally do.  I still prefer no-rise, I can feel it in my back when I stand, and I’m on my feet for long hours at work.  My feet feel much better when I walk, and I still feel that the Altra shoes are good for my feet, except right now, I’m having trouble fitting the instep, because my foot is swollen.

Doctor couldn’t get me in right away, so I’m muddling through as best as I can.  Two different applications, 1) standing for long hours on hard floors, and 2) walking over uneven terrain for hours at a time.  What’s the best type of shoe?

[W I S N E R !]

Hi Diane,

So here’s my story, for whatever it’s worth.

Background:

I’ve grown up skateboarding and surfing in Southern California.  Which means I’ve spent my life barefoot  or wearing classic Vans shoes, meaning no support, rise, cushion, etc.  So there’s that.

Around 2006 I shifted away from endurance cycling into distance running.  I had just come off hiking the JMT solo and was interested in wilderness endurance events and ultra running.  I’ve never been fast, but my goal was running a marathon and then getting into ultras.  I went to the shoe store and told them I was training for a marathon.  I’m 6’2″ and was about 190 pounds at the time.  They took a look at me and prescribed the biggest, most supportive “motion control” shoes they could find.  So I assumed they knew what they were doing and went on my way.

Over the next year I worked up to running marathon distances but had some fits and starts.  I missed the 2008 Los Angeles Marathon, my first goal race, due to the flu (I was overtraining/not resting enough and was getting sick a lot that first year).  I kept running, now shooting for the 2009 LA Marathon.  I was primarily running road.

In the lead up to 2009 I was starting to get the first twinges of ITB syndrome in my left outer knee.  I made it to race day and completed the race.  But the ITB issues kept nagging, only getting worse.  Within a month I couldn’t run and could barely hike without it flaring up.  I had to take the better part of a year off because it got so bad.  I did all the stretches, all the roller techniques, had my shoes and stride evaluated.  Custom orthotics, making my shoes even bigger, were recommended but I couldn’t afford them.

All of this time I was a heel striker.

The ITB issues slowly died down and I got back into running.  But I could feel it flaring up again, but this time in the right knee.  Completely frustrated and still determined to run distance, I started looking for alternatives.  I discovered  Barefoot Ted online, lots of other barefoot and minimalist runners, and soon read Born to Run.  I was so frustrated that my progress was completely halted that I figured I had absolutely nothing left to lose.

I remember my first barefoot run.  It was about 10:30 at night and I set out to do a 5K road loop I trained on a lot.  Mind you, I was coming off of running a marathon (or close to it) in training almost every other week.  Because you have to run with a forefoot strike when running barefoot, your calves and achilles will get worked quickly.  The backs of my legs felt like steel cables about to pop only a mile into the run (which started on a slight uphill).

But something completely clicked.  It felt like I was running the way I was supposed to run.  Granted, my pace was slower, but the impact was far less.  I completed the 5K and had calves and achilles so sore I could barely walk the next day.

But there wasn’t a hint of ITB pain to be felt.  At all.

At around this time I shifted to running almost exclusively on trail.  What I had read about the repetitive nature of pounding even, hard suffices made sense.  I experimented with Vibram Five Fingers, but hated them because leaves and sticks would get caught in the toes.  I ran a good deal of pure barefoot (up to about 6 miles) and wore either New Balance MT100s or the New Balance Minimus when they came out.  I worked up to bigger distances in these shoes, having run numerous 50Ks in the Minimus or MT100s, MT101s, and later the MT110s with no issues.

And I became injury free.

I believe it mostly has to do with the basic mechanics of running mid to forefoot as opposed to heel striking.  I also know I have fewer blistering issues with more minimal footwear.  M feet and toes are wide from a lifetime of being barefoot; traditional shoes are typically stupidly pointed, causing too much toe rub for me.

I did start wanting something with a little more protection for distances over 15 to 20 miles and settled on Inov8 Roclites.  They have a slight drop, but most importantly, they fold, twist, and bend, allowing your foot to move pretty naturally.  I did events like the Grand Canyon R2R2R and long, hard backpack routes in them.  They seem to be the best compromise.

I’ve tried just about everything.  I really wanted to love Altras, but the traction on the Lone Peaks I had absolutely sucked (the forefoot lugs disappeared in less than 50 miles) and they were so wide and relatively stiff I felt like I was wearing clown shoes, tripping on everything.

Fast forward to about a year ago and I started to second guess myself, looking for something more supportive to take a little of the beating off.  I got some Brooks Transcend road running shoes, full featured, full support.  I have to say, after my first road run in them I was amazed at how fresh my feet felt.  But with time, I noticed I was feeling it in my knees again.  Personally, I think the theory that thick, padded shoes increase strike forces is spot on.  In addition to knee issues again, I was clumsy as hell in them, slipping and tripping on anything and everything.  I had some Cascadias for backpacking; same problems.  Toe too tight, heel too high, super clumsy.  I tried a pair of La Sportiva Bushido recently; couldn’t even get them on; my toes are too splayed from being barefoot so long.

I’m back to Inov8 Roclites (in size 14 for extra toe room) for distance and backpacking, New Balance Minimus MT10v4 for daily running and multisport stuff.  The Inov8 Roclites are far more minimal than they look, especially when broken in.  I can literally twist them in circles and fold them in half.  Very flexible, very low riding, very lightweight for their size.

New Balance really nailed it with the newest Minimus MT10v4.  I’ve had nearly every iteration of this shoe and this one seems to have eliminated all previous flaws.  Full Vibram sole with good lugs, no seams (I prefer sockless), very natural feeling, and they come in wide for extra toe room.  The toe box is super wide to begin with.

I do a lot of multisport activities and that’s where I believe minimal shoes really shine.  For example, today I mountain biked about 4 miles to get to and from a 6 mile trail run.  I try and do a lot of plyometric type exercises while I’m out on daily runs- broad and “box” jumps, climbing trees, scrambling steep hills, etc. so I need a shoe that I have good balance in, that rides low, and feels very natural.  My run has a lot of stream crossings; I find stiff shoes like Altras and Cascadias don’t conform to rocks well enough, making them too dangerous to rock hop in.  I also do a lot of canyoneering; same thing- dealing with water, rappelling, balance, climbing, jumping, etc… minimal shoes are safer here too.

 

[Ryan G]

I, too, have been a fan of the New Balance MT series, my favorite being the MT110 AK (wish I had bought ten pairs of them when they were on clearance on 6pm.com a few years back), closely followed by MT10 v1. Had the pleasure of both backpacking and running ultras in these shoes with no issues. I like shoes with the option of wearing sockless. Even went as far as running two 50ks in a pair of Lunas, but given the choice, I’d prefer to run in shoes.

I have a pair of the v4s that Craig mentioned above, and while I really wanted to like them, they have a completely different feel than the previous iterations, and not necessarily in a good way for me – most notably a slightly smaller toe box and less proprioception due to the thicker midsole. Luckily, Running Warehouse is restocking the v1s again. They will be my backup for all of my outdoor activities until I find another replacement in my never-ending quest to replace my beloved MT110s.

[Nick Gatel]

I’ve been an advocate of minimalist shoes here for years. Like Craig, I literally grew up barefooted. In high school I was a distance runner and usually ran barefooted, even on my workouts on the streets.

Craig’s initially injury was probably caused by his over engineered shoes. Running in minimalist shoes returned him to a more natural stride, especially the running foot strike, which is not natural when walking, unless you are going uphill. The best thing is to walk and run without forcing a particular stride or strike, but allow the body to do what it wants without thinking about it. Switching from “regular” shoes to minimalists shoes needs to be done carefully and slowly if one has always worn “regular” shoes. But running in minimalist shoes is much different than standing or walking in minimalist shoes. I suspect you have injured your foot, and probably not specifically due to the type of shoe you were wearing.

Best course of action is to see a doctor and get X-rays. From there, healing and rest. Be wary of prescriptions for special shoes, however for a short period time they maybe needed.

Good luck and hope all turns out well.

[BCap]

In my experience everyone’s feet are entirely different and need very different solutions which are highly context dependent.  And while I enjoyed ‘Born to Run’ and like many of the basic ideas, I suspect the book created more foot problems than it cured.  Every time I buy socks at REI I see some overweight guy with foot problems buying a pair of Five Fingers for walking around town on sidewalks and it seems like a pretty good bet that they are about to screw up their feet.

My anecdotal experience in an extremely abridged form…  My feet have always gotten tires/sore when standing or walking.  In college I also picked up some lower back issues which started to affect my ability to run track/XC.  After reading BtR and some articles, I spent a lot of time focusing on my stride and was able after several months to transition from a heel strike to a forefoot strike (no change in shoe necessary).  This dramatically lowered the impact on my lower back and I was able to continue to run.  However, my feet still usually hurt/get sore faster than most peoples seemed to.

I figured my feet were just weak and needed to get stronger.  Then I spent a full summer working on a beach walking barefoot in the sand.  I probably put on sandals/shoes less than 5% of the time.  In theory this should have helped my feet get much stronger.  My feet surely got stronger but that didn’t change how much they hurt/got sore.  I have flat feet and they sure as hell didn’t get any less flat during that time.

Last year I started the PCT and my feet continued to hurt/get sore more easily than most peoples.  Long story short, a pair of green superfeet purchased in Mammoth have made an enormous difference to me for comfort while walking/standing for long periods.  I find it funny (in a less than ideal way) that I spent 20+ years with feet that hurt when a $30 pair of non-custom orthodics could fix the problem.

This is only my personal experience and thus represents N=1 sample size.  I have met folks who went the opposite way — their feet always hurt until they strengthened their feet and transitioned to minimalist shoes.  Anyone who strongly professes either answer is the ‘only right way’ is probably incorrect.

Knowing my body as I do, I do the following.  When I am standing (on concrete especially) for long periods I prefer full grain leather boots and superfeet. When walking long distances I prefer trail runner and superfeet.  When running it doesn’t really matter what shoe (obviously no boots) or insole I choose, so long as I maintain a forefoot strike with shorter stride length.  If I tried to run in boots or stand on concrete in minimalist shoes then I’d be in a world of hurt.

My 2 cents.

[Nick Gatel]

Every time I buy socks at REI I see some overweight guy with foot problems buying a pair of Five Fingers for walking around town on sidewalks and it seems like a pretty good bet that they are about to screw up their feet.

Yes, and Vibram actually lost a lawsuit over this. The court said the advertising was deceptive, even though the “fine print” had warnings. Common sense was not a component of the court’s decision.

As I said earlier, transitioning to minimalist footwear takes time if one has always had their feet encapsulated in over-engineered footwear.

My urban wear is flip flops. Over the past year, while only wearing flip flops, I hauled over 100,000 lbs of building materials from my driveway to the backyard. I built patios; excavated and leveled over 3,000 sq ft of soil, built cement forms, and mixed cement to pour over 1,000 sq ft of walkways and patio slabs. Laid over 1,200 sq feet of pavers, dug holes to plant a few dozen plants, and walked 5 miles a day to exercise the dog. During this year I did numerous backpacking trips in shoes that weight around 5 ounces each. And I am 66 years old.

But the caveat is I have always worn minimalist or zero drop shoes most of the time, plus I am not overweight. One cannot just suddenly switch to minimalist shoes and rack up big miles. On the other hand, running in over-engineered shoes often results in injury.

 

[Jeffs Eleven]

Yeah, but look at your toenails….

[Nick Gatel]

Yeah. If you let your toenails grow long enough, they will wrap around the front of your toes, creating an armored shield :)

Minimalist shoes can result in impact injuries, such as landing on a rock outcropping, and on the other hand, a minimal thickness sole will give feedback to your brain quicker so you can anticipate a potential problem. There really isn’t a perfect shoe, but fit overrides everything else.

I have repeatedly posted that minimalist shoes are not for everyone. However, shoes with all sorts of “motion controls” often induce new problems. The biggest challenge are folks who don’t get out often to hike, or those who spend little time on their feet due to heavy work/family schedules. We actually have to exercise our feet. The OP isn’t in this situation. Seems she injured something and shoes don’t prevent all potential injuries. Injuries require pause, diagnosis, rest or treatment.

[W I S N E R !]

It’s a pretty subjective area, no doubt.

I’m wearing New Balance Leadville v3s now and like them a lot.  I was using the Minimus for general, shorter distance stuff and Altra Lone Peaks for longer distance/hikes.  I can’t help but feel the Altras are built pretty poorly; their foam seems to bottom out almost immediately and the shoes lose what little structure they have and become kind of sloppy.  The Minimus has no structure, but it’s designed to fit that way.

I’ve been doing a lot of climbing and hiking steep XC and the lack of heel drop has left me with some pretty tight calves/Achilles and mild plantar fascitis.  I hadn’t been stretching enough.  The heel drop of the Leadvilles definitely takes some stress off those areas.  Stretching has fixed my issues, but the drop has helped.

End of the day, I think our feet change and our needs change.  The greatest gift of minimalism for me, however, was not the footwear, but what it’s taught me about mechanics and form.  I’m far better off for it.  But there’s no need to stick to just one thing.  I have a small quiver that works for me.

I still do all of my canyoneering trips, up to 15 miles with a fairly heavy pack (wet rope and gear), in either the Minimus or a pair of Bedrock Cairn Pro sandals.  The proprioception of minimal shoes is VERY important to me when in canyons, rappelling slippery stuff, scrambling, etc.  In fact, I feel it’s dangerous not to have it.  Minimal also aids in swimming with shoes.  But runs, hikes, or backpacking over 3-5 miles, and anything with significant climbing, I go to the Leadvilles and feel better.

[Diane Pinkers]

Well, my foot is still thicker/higher volume through the instep, but no longer hurts, if I’m walking enough.  This has been a really bad year for hiking for me, due to family issues, but when I do walk, my feet get tired, but it’s a “good” pain.  I’m still using zero rise shoes at work and on the trail, I just couldn’t take any sort of arch support or heel rise, it made things worse.  At home I’m running around with nothing on.  I just need to get out more.

[Nick Smolinske]

I’m big on switching between multiple pairs of shoes, for the sake of getting more variety in the way your feet are impacted. I’ve only had major issues with foot pain twice in my life, but both times changing shoes helped. Once I switched from heavy work boots to thinner-soled cheap-o Wal-mart boots and my feet felt amazing (working outside for a conservation corps). The other time I started wearing heavily padded shoes a few days a week to reduce stress from working on a concrete floor.

I do this in daily life as well as in the outdoors. At work I alternate days between two different shoes (for the summer, Altras with thick padding and Tevas that are much less padded). When hiking I have several different pairs for different styles (approach shoes for off-trail stuff, plus a couple pairs of mesh trail runners). I’ve been injury-free for a few years now following this strategy. That and hip exercises (to prevent IT band syndrome) have been working really well for me.

[Beendarenback]

“Everybody’s different …” ….well thats the truth.

I think those minimalist shoes screwed up my feet. I’m a bigger guy 6’4″ 230 so no doubt bulk is an issue but when I was running trails with minimalist shoes I was just getting sore feet…then developed PF….now I have bunions and full on neuropathy in the front 1/2 of my feet due to nerve damage.

I put on Birkenstocks and its heaven. That tells me something a Dr doesn’t have to. My feet feel better hiking with a semi stiff sole and a good orthotic. YMMV

 

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

I have achilles tendintis (tendinosis?) but I got that wearing some kind of neutral Brooks trail running shoes so it wasn’t caused by minimalist shoes, just overuse and it’s never gone away and only gotten worse of the years. I did have to quit one long distance hike because I bought “motion control” shoes and they broke my feet. It felt like I had stress fractures, but I don’t know if I did.

I tried a lot of different minimalist shoes. I really like them. But I don’t know if it’s the thinness of the sole or something else, but I end up with the feeling that the hot ground is burning my feet. Literally burning because I end up with lots of blisters on the bottoms of my feet. I really struggled with heat and blisters on a section hike across Hat Creek Rim a couple summers ago until I put some reflectix in my thin and somewhat worn out Altra Superiors and that fixed it.

I found some $29 wide width Saucony trail runners at Big 5 and they seemed to be great. But the longer I wore them the more broken my feet started to feel. I just cannot stand to have a shoe that forces my toes to point upwards, putting the balls of my feet into a deep depression like that. A lot of shoes do that. It kills me.

I think the perfect fit are what those NB Minimus look like above. Tight around the instep and lots of toe room, pretty flat. But the thin sole means my feet will get burned and blistered. I like Altra shoes because my feet are square. I love the Timps because they’re thick and cushy and then I put even more cushy insoles inside. I tried putting Sole insoles inside but they make my feet hurt. I don’t know. I don’t understand.

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