Help Needed Switching to a Frameless Pack

[Lowell k]

Over the past few years I have transitioned from a 5 lb pack to a pack slightly under 3 lbs., but I am now struggling with the switch to a frameless pack. It may just be the case that frameless is not for me, but I thought I would check here before making that conclusion.

Right now my best fitting pack is my Sierra Designs Flex Capacitor and I tried a couple of times to make HMG pack work but without success, mainly due to some of the problems I describe below.

The main frameless pack I have tried is the MLD Exodus. The weight was about 25 lbs. and I could not get a comfortable fit where I did not feel a lot of shoulder carry. I added a closed cell foam pad to the inside to try and give it some structure, tried a couple of different packing configurations to get the heavier items close to my back, lowered the carry weight to 22 lbs., but I just can’t seem to get a comfortable fit. Aside from weight on my shoulders I also feel that the pack is pulling backwards.

I have slowly whittled my gear weight way down over the past couple of years (thanks BPL folk) and I would like to accomplish the same for my pack.

Any suggestions much appreciated,

Lowell

[Bruce Tolley]

So the total of 22 lbs includes all consumables like water and fuel and food?  You are near the 25 lb limit recommended by MLD.

I own the Prophet which is similar in dimension to the Exodus but with a shorter collar extension. I find I cannot take much over 21 or 22 lbs myself.

[Matthew / BPL]

Really unscientific but my perception from posts on BPL is that at…

15 pounds 99.9% of people are comfortable with a frameless pack
18 pounds 95% of people are comfortable with a frameless pack
20 pounds 80% of people are comfortable with a frameless pack
22 pounds 40% of people are comfortable with a frameless pack
25 pounds 10% of people are comfortable with a frameless pack

Modifiers
Adding a supportive hipbelt (wide webbing like an old Kumo or padded wings like an MLD pack) probably pushes you a pound or two up the range.

Packing poorly will mess everything up by several pounds. I feel a massive difference when I get the heaviest items (food) right in the small of my back. Packing things so the pack barrels and gets thicker front to back messes up everything.

YMMV!

[Lowell k]

@Bruce – Yes, 22 lbs. including everything.

@Matthew – really helpful knowing those numbers. Any chance you can give a very detailed way you pack a frameless? I can’t say that I was placing heavier objects in the small of my back, they were close to my back but more like mid-back.

 

 

[S Long]

My base weight for 3-seasons in the Rockies and Sierras is just a bit under 9 pounds. I use a Zpacks Nero that I trimmed some stuff off of. I also removed the hipbelt and sternum strap. For the pack “support” I use a Gossamer Gear Thinlight pad. That keeps stuff from poking me in the back and adds puncture resistance to my sleeping pad. I don’t think a frameless pack would be comfortable for most people at 20+ pounds for all day. Mine is perfect right where it is.

[jscott]

I’ve never had any luck getting decent–or any–weight transfer off my shoulders to my hips with a frameless pack. Granted, I may not have been packing them right. I don’t think that’s it tho. My feeling is that it takes structure to achieve weight transfer. With a frameless, your shoulders and spine ARE the structure.

[Iago Vazquez]

I have an Exodus, and 20 lbs is my comfort limit. I may consider 21, but when I hit 22 lbs, I reach for a frame. Of course, this is my personal experience.

[Lowell k]

If the heavier items are meant to be in the small of the back area, is a main purpose of the hip belt to bring these heavier items securely to the small of the back?

[Matthew / BPL]

I’ve had a really good experience with the two waist/hip belts i mentioned (Kumo and MLD). I don’t think I get great load transfer but my perception is I get a couple of pounds onto the waistbelt. Again, not scientific but if I’m at 18# and 2# are on my waist then 16# are on my shoulders.

[Matthew / BPL]

Any chance you can give a very detailed way you pack a frameless?

No, I can’t. It’s changed as my load has changed as my kit has changed. It takes trial and error. Quilt at the bottom. I’ve had good results with splitting my food into two flat bags, one in the small of my back, the other up a little higher towards my back. First aid towards the top against my back (I carry a larger FAK than many here). Lighter/fluffier stuff away from my back. Sleeping pad (neoair) is usually rolled in a 20” wide tube vertical up one side of the pack but I’ve also had it flat against my back or folded into a smaller book size packet against my back.

Bear cans are a challenge, Bearboxer less so.

Eagerly awaiting an Atom+ with a light frame. I’m hoping that makes gives me a couple extra pounds of weight capacity without going full frame.

I just received a loaned Nashville Cutaway from a very nice BPL member. I will try that out this weekend on a dayhike and hope to take it out on a real trip soon. The vest harness seems pretty awesome.

/ramble

[Lowell k]

I looked at Atom Packs website.  The Mo looks super interesting for someone like me who is trying to get to the 2 lb pack weight but struggled going fully frameless.

[jscott]

I should add that I always have a bear canister. this last makes frameless packs difficult.

[Luke Schmidt]

My experience was that a frameless pack was only comfortable to 20+ pounds if I stiffened it with a foam sleeping pad. But I gave up on frameless packs for all but SUL

• I wanted to use an inflatable pad. If I added the foam pad in addition to that the weight savings was negligible.
• A slightly heavier internal frame pack was more comfortable with all loads over about 15 pounds.

IMHO frameless packs should be saved for the SUL niche. The market has progressed and there are plenty of light framed packs available. Trust me, they will not slow you down. You might even do better because you won’t get a sore spot in your back from a pack that doesn’t distribute weight.

[Monte Masterson]

When it comes to frameless load haulers, the ULA CDT has a supreme reputation. Good hip belt and excellent design, but I agree with what ULA says in their description:

“The maximum comfortable load in this pack is approximately 18 pounds or less. No matter what anyone claims, no frameless pack is comfortable over this load and the CDT is no exception.”

Absolutely. I don’t even like to lug around that much with a frameless pack, and that’s one with a good hip belt. Without a good belt 10 lbs is the comfort limit IMO. For weights over 15 lbs why not just go with a framed ZPacks Arc series backpack? They range between 20 to 25 ounces https://zpacks.com/products/arc-air-50l-robic-backpack

Nevertheless, packing strategies make a big difference. Closed cell foam pads should certainly be utilized to stiffen up a frameless pack and give it structure. Also it’s important to not pack items too loose or too tight. Heaviest and most dense items should be carried high and as close to the spine as possible.

https://www.ula-equipment.com/product/cdt/

[Ben C]

I think Matthew hits the nail on the head with his numbers. I have no problem with a frameless up to 25+ pounds. And I appreciate the weight savings as well as the close-to-the-back balance of a frameless. I always carry a MLD Prophet unless I am lugging heavy climbing gear.

But I hear people like Luke claim they get uncomfortable in a frameless pack at 15 pounds. That’s not my experience, but it is his experience. You might just not be a frameless pack person. For a long weekend trip, I’m usually carrying less than 15 pounds anyway.

As for packing, I typically put a 1/8th inch foam pad at the back panel. After that, I think it just depends on what you are carrying. My quilt is typically in the bottom but I think it would work fine elsewhere. I only pay a lot of attention to my packing if I am doing a longer trip and pushing 25 pounds.

[Marcus]

Im with Monte. There is no benefit to going frameless over 18lbs, and realistically less.

My Mariposa 60 weighs ~32oz and carries 35lb comfortably for short stints. Long range its comfortable around 30lbs. To save 14 oz by going frameless makes no sense to me, when a lightweight framed pack like the Gossamer Gorilla, Mariposa, Zpacks, MLD, ULA, etc are only 14oz more and at minimum DOUBLE your comfort carrying capacity, a frame is 1000% worth it until you’re SUL as Monte says.

And remember Monte is a 6lb SUL freak (in a good way). He can get away with a frameless when desired. If you experience ANY discomfort from a frameless pack, take the 10-16oz hit and get a lightweight framed pack. You will likely be much, much happier in the long run. Over 18lb total weight? Framed :)

[Lowell k]

Thanks all! This has been very helpful!!

Based on what I have read, my next pack weight drop will come from switching from my Flex Capacitor (42 oz) to a Gossamer Gear Gorilla (29 oz).

The Flex Capacitor has been awesome and I have used it for a few hundred miles successfully. The best feature is that I can reach the side water bottles easily, and it looks like the Gorilla’s side water bottle pockets also can be easily reached. If the Gorilla performs as well as the Flex Capacitor then I will have saved 14 oz. without loss of comfort and features.

[Miner]

Mathew, you had PM’d me before a question about how I pack things in my framless pack, but I was traveling and then forgot about it.  So I’ll respond here.

I own 3 packs.  An framed ULA Ohm that replaced a heavier ULA Circuit that I use for carrying heavy weight (25+lbs), but I rarely ever use this pack (once every couple of years) because it’s bigger than I ever need.  And 2 frameless packs, a ULA CDT, that I call my long hauler, and a smaller ULA Burn for short trips.

I often carry 20-24 lbs in my ULA CDT pack for those longer sections or large water carries.  I don’t really notice the weight. I did when I got my first one, but after trying various packing strategies, it no longer bothers me. I don’t think its because my shoulders got stronger, because I can go several months in winter without carrying a pack at all. I very rarely carry more weight than that, but I definitely feel it above 24, though if it is only for a few hours I might not notice it for awhile.

I find that even the minimalist hipbelt on the CDT, really helps with the weight. It is definitely better than the MLD Burn though even that one’s hipbelt helps.  Years ago, when hiking the Tahoe Yosemite trail, I once injured myself where I was peeing blood for the last few days (I think I bruised my kidney) and I couldn’t comfortably wear my hipbelt, so my shoulders were carrying everything.  The weight on my shoulders was painful compared to a day earlier of almost not noticing the weight at all when I was using the hip belt (I was carrying a bear can).

I do not use an inflatable pad when carrying above 20lbs.  I want the rigidness my foam pads provide.  I use a Gossamer Gear 3 section Torso pad and an additional section from an older pad (their sit pads use to be the same thing, but they changed the designs so their sit pads don’t nest anymore). That does take a lot of interior volume which is why I don’t do it in my smaller MLD Burn pack.  But the CDT will easily carry a weeks worth of stuff for me (with my gear) so I only use my CDT for longer sections or when I need to carry a lot of water. But all that pad thickness against my back does help transfer the weight better to my hipbelt.  The other thing is to try to pack it in a way where you don’t have any empty space inside the pack. The more solidly your gear is packed into it, the more rigid it becomes which helps with weight transfer.  That said, you want to be careful to not deform the shape of the pack very much either when stuffing things (reason I will go into when talking about the bear can below).

So after putting my pads against my back with the elastic straps to help hold it in place, I stuff my sleeping bag at the bottom of my pack so any space below the pads (there is a short bit) has some nice comfortable padding. Prefer to not use a stuff sack for my quilt so it can fill out the bottom completely.  I put my food back above that in the center.  I put my tarp on one side of the food bag, my bivy sack on the other which does mean I have to shift my food bag contents a little to get the width of these to fit.  I then stuff my 2 small hygene and misc stuff sacks as low as they will go on the front of my food bag (the area facing furthest away from my back). I then stuff down my down jacket and rain jacket into any gaps around all of that, with some staying above the top of my food bag as I have filled pretty much all the space below that.  I then put my clothing bag on top with anything else and cinch down the sides and top tightly.

I then put in my water bottles in the side pockets; I often carry 1 or 2 Gatoraid or Poweraid bottles (better for drink mixes and I don’t often use a filter, just Aqua Mira so I don’t need a compatible bottle like a smart water one), they tend push in on the sides of the pack as well which compresses things just a little more. If I’m carrying more than 2L of water, I put the rest inside next to my food bag, which influences what I can pack down around it; so some of the rest stays up higher.  I found that 2x 1L smart bottles next to the food bag next to my sleeping pads tends to stiffen things up even more.

If I’m carrying a bear can, I prefer the small Boxer Can, though I have carried a Garcia can a few times.  It basically replaces my food bag and there is less I can stuff around it.  You definitely do not want to fill in the corners of your pack around the back part of the can (the part that faces furthest away from your back) too much  or you’ll round the shape of your pack where it fits against your back which will pull on the shoulder straps more and you will most definitely feel it from my experience.

I do not like putting alot of gear outside of my pack strapped on as I want to use it as filler. So if it is strapped on or in the front mesh pocket, it is very light such as my 1/8″ thin pad, my 2oz wind jacket, my pack cover, or toliet paper, and maybe my small bag of chips I snack on during the day. If I had to  carry something heavy on the outside of my pack (say snowshoes or carrying a bear can externally), I think I’d go for a framed pack as the gear weight isn’t contributing with making the pack rigid and is putting strain on the pack in a way that tends to deform the pack, putting more strain on the shoulders.

I will put in one disclaimer, last summer, I did the Uinta Highline trail  over 7 days plus some change, so I carried a lot of food weight with 3L of water to start and thought the weight was carrying just fine, but then on the last day of the trip, my shoulders started bothering me despite the weight being pretty light at that point. So some unnoticed strain did build up from the weight over time.  Never noticed that before except when carrying a Garcia bear can with the rounding of the pack that I mentioned before. Don’t know if it’s because I’m now over 50 or because I so rarely go for sections that long without a resupply that I never had that issue before.

 

[Matthew / BPL]

Ok. That is very helpful to read. Thanks, Miner.

So essentially you are making a frame using a pad. That makes sense. I’m not crazy about sleeping on foam pads and that approach moves one’s center of gravity further backwards because of the thickness of the tripled up pad.

My Atom+ arrives soon. I’m hopeful the light frame in this pack will function in a manner similar to your pad, giving me a bit of transfer to the hipbelt but allowing me to stay on my inflatable pad.

To the OP: another option is the burrito method of using a CCF pad. Ryan Jordan describes this really well in Module 16 of Ultralight Boot Camp (paid content or free to unlimited members).

[Author]

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