Frameless pack? for Internal Frame User

[Max S]

Hi,

I’ve lowered my base weight over the past two years to the point that I am considering buying a new pack. Currently my base weights between 11 lbs and 13 lbs depending on if I am going alone or with my girlfriend, with stove or without. I am hauling my gear in a 5 year old Tatonka Leon 38 which itself weights in at about 3.5 lbs. I can easily fit my gear and about 5 days with of food (probably even more) into this pack and while I love how it carries the weight (it transfers 99% of the weight to the hips), I feel it’s just an overkill for shorter trips, especially considering it’s weight. So I guess I am looking for a new pack to further lighten my load down to the 9-10 lbs range.

Right now I mostly do 2-3 day trips with an occasional 4-5 day trip, so a 35-40l pack will absolutely fulfill my volume requirements. I’m usually pushing bigger mile days (25+), so carrying comfort is big factor for me. I’ve looked at a couple frame-less packs but it’s hard to compare them and there are not too many reviews for the new versions of these packs. Specifically I am interested in the:

 

ULA CDT

Gossamer Gear Kumo

Superior Wilderness Designs 35 (with padded Hipbelt)

 

I’ve also considered the MLD Burn 38, but the pack has no hip-belt pockets and it looks like the side pockets may be hard to reach without taking the pack off. Since these are all frame-less packs, I should mention that I use a Exped Synmat UL, so that’s not very stiff. Alternatively I’ve looked at a few lightweight internal frame packs:

 

ULA Ohm 2.0 (Seems a little large)

Gossamer Gear Gorilla (I love it’s features but I really hate this years floating top lid)

Superior Wilderness Designs 35 (with frame stays and padded hipbelt)

HMG Windrider 2400 (not sure If I like it’s pockets)

 

However, I feel that since I already own an internal frame pack that can easily haul 35 lbs, I am really leaning towards getting a frame-less pack for those lighter loads and then using my other pack in case I need to go heavy. I have a few questions I hope getting an answer to from more experienced lightweight backpackers:

 

How will these packs carry my loads (probably averaging between 15-20 lbs with a occasional 22-24 load at the start of each trip) and how will they distribute the load between hips and shoulders?

Would you recommend going with a light internal frame pack vs the frame less with these loads?

Do you have other pack recommendations (I’m obviously new to the market)?

 

Thanks for your help!

 

[Lester Moore]

Have you looked at the KS 40 UL pack? There are many options you can add – adding a frame you get a minimalist framed pack under 20 ounces. Have never used one, but folks seem to like them. If you sweat a lot, also look at the Zpacks Arc Blast – folks who sweat seem to like the back ventilation, and it’s also light for a framed pack.

As for the GG Gorilla, I love mine and it does an excellent job of transferring weight to the hips. On the 2017 model you can remove the top if you like. Hardly use the Gorilla anymore unless going on more than a 5 day trip (over 20 lbs or so total pack weight). The Gorilla seems ideal between 20 and 30+ lbs. If you could only have one pack, something like a Gorilla could do it all, including lower weights too.

Under 20 lbs and especially under 15, I always take the MLD Burn. Still getting used to frameless, but it feels much more appropriate when carrying 15 lbs or less weight than a heavier framed pack does. The side pockets are a bit hard insert/withdraw water bottles, but not too bad and I love all the other features of the Burn. I only wish I had gotten a large torso length (all the specs and support recommended a Medium) – the medium feels about an inch too short for me.

[Nick Gatel]

Forget base weight. How much does all your gear, food, water, and fuel weigh?

For many people when the total weight gets in the 15 – 20 lb range they are much happier with a pack with a frame. Others are perfectly happy to shlep more than 20lbs in a frameless pack. I’m in the former group.

[JCH]

Agree with Nick.  My total pack weight is usually 17-25 lbs and the Arc Haul is darn near unnoticeable at the lower weight and totally comfortable at the upper. In both cases all weight is on the hips.

[Matthew / BPL]

I’m very comfortable with my Kumo up to 20 pounds and find it a little too much around 22. I feel no need for a frame at those weights but obviously this varies a lot. They ship quickly and (I think) you can return them. I find the construction details and materials to be dissapointing but people get a whole PCT/AT out of them.

[Max S]

Thanks for all your input! Guess I am trending to a lightweight framed pack then, considering that I prefer most of the load on my hips.

The KS40 looks really interesting! Does anyone know how its suspension transfers weight to the hips vs. packs from Superior Wilderness designs that can also be customized but have two internal aluminum stays? How does it compare to classics like the ULA Ohm 2.0 or the GG Gorilla?

Any other packs should consider?

Any Gorilla 2017 users that can comment on how awkward/good the floating lid is?

 

[Myles S]

I have the 2017 Gorilla, and I bought it with the plan to immediately ditch the lid. The closure system without the lid is fairly awkward though. Each of the four straps that are criss-crossed when buckled is adjustable, and the whole system feels over engineered. I’m considering modifying/simplifying the top closure with some snipping and sewing. I would prefer a roll top closure or a single, central strap to secure the rolled up extension collar after cinching. I can post a reply here if I end up making any alterations.

I was in a similar situation before buying the Gorilla, in terms of the weight of my kit, and the options I was considering. Ultimately, I wish I had chosen something simpler and a little lighter. But with the extra ounces for the Gorilla, you get what I’ve found to be a very comfortable suspension. I think this is partly because the U shaped metal frame terminates in the hipbelt, improving the weight transfer. That said, this is the first lightweight pack I’ve had, so I don’t have much to compare it to, and please take my advice with a grain of salt.

[Matthew / BPL]

I’ve been impressed with my son’s Ohm 2.0. It’s nice and narrow with those really nice side pockets. ULA’s build quality has always struck me as excellent.

I love my Kumo but I find the build quality lacking. I’ve never even seen a Gorilla in person so I don’t know how it differs but I perceive ULA as a much better pack builder.

[Max S]

Myles, I was considering the same thing with the Gorilla but then decided to maybe wait until next years model is released or just buy a different pack. Imo, the detachable lid with no roll-top or at least a strap similar to the one on the Ohm is a mayor design flaw and the bandaid closure looks just awkward and reduced overall usable volume.

I am now kind of rending towards getting an Ohm 2.0, simply because I only live 1.5h away from where ULA sews their packs. So I can drive there and test load the pack. I’m still interested in the KS40 or KS50 though. They look like great packs to me and they are lighter than the Ohm. However, at this point I’m not sure what exactly I expect from a light pack and it seems to be a big step to order a custom one.

[Matthew / BPL]

Oh yeah if you are 90 minutes away go try an Ohm (and a CDT) out.

And for the love of all things holy please try to get decent photos of the Fastpack. Seriously the worst product photography in history.

[Max S]

Hey,

 

I met Chris and ended up getting an Ohm for longer trips. I didn’t have time to use it on a longer one yet (and thus didn’t have a big load in it) but I think it is going to carry really well up to at least 25 lb.

However, the Ohm is huge and I have trouble filling the main compartment, even if I shove all my gear that usually goes into the front pocket into it. Since my 4 year old daypack is starting to fall apart (it gets a lot of use with the mountains being so close) I am now looking for a new frameless pack that will serve for day hikes and 2-3 day trips. Base weight will be around 8 to 9 lb for these, which means I will be carrying about 18 lb max in the pack at the beginning of the trip, most of the time less.

After test packing the 2014 MLD prophet of a friend (which obviously had too much volume) I am now looking at the Burn.

Does anyone have the 2017 model and can confirm that the roll-top compression straps now buckle into the side compression straps like on the cuben versions of their packs? How do you like this closure system?

Also, would you get the Prophet hip belt for the Burn or not (it adds 2oz, which isn’t that much of a weight penalty if it improves the carry significantly)?

Any other pack recommendations? I looked at the new ULA Photon, but the volume seems a little small and it’s also quite heavy for a day pack.

Thanks,

Max

[Lester Moore]

Yes, the 2017 Burn I have has roll top straps that clip to the side compression straps. The side/roll straps have worked well for both high-volume loads and small day hiking loads (compressing the pack). With loads under 20lbs, the Burn’s simple thin belt with built in wings works well enough for me, but most of my loads are 10-15 lbs total, so I’m willing to compromise a wee bit of comfort at 20lbs with the small hip belt – YMMV. 18 lbs max is a good place to be with the standard Burn IMHO, especially if you’re still getting used to carrying a frameless backpack.

As for the side pockets on the Burn, the volume and the secure closure are excellent, but they could be angled a little more toward the front to make access easier while hiking – not a big deal though.

[Ben C]

I think load tolerance in a frameless is personal.  I’m typically good with 25 pounds total weight.  I have about an 8 pound base, but can get up to 25 total weight on a longer trip.  I recently went from a lighter pack to a cuben Prophet.  The Prophet is pretty versatile.  It’s light enough for a short trip but has room for a bear can or long trip.  I have found it to be really comfortable so far.  I have found that a 1/8 inch foam pad in the pack adds helpful structure; plus it’s good for camp and under your sleeping mat.

[Max S]

The prophet is a nice pack and carriers really well, but way too large for the intended use of the pack. If I go longer or have to carry more, I’ll simply use my Ohm.

I think my weight tolerance is where I am unsure if I want to upgrade or not. I’ve see that some folks even get the shoulder straps of the prophet on the Burn. However, having a more sturdy hip belt, beefier straps or even both seems like an overkill on this pack.

Curious to hear from people who had to make a similar decision on their first frame less pack.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

I eschew frameless backpacks (not daypacks) as they cannot transfer weight to my hips. ‘Nuf sed.

[Bob Moulder]

Probably one of the most subjective topics around because of the number of variables.

I’m fine with my Zero up to about 18 lbs and could go with 2-3 pounds more for a day or two if a heavier food carry is required.

There is definitely a learning curve (and some experimentation) when it comes to packing a frameless pack. This is how I went about it at the start, and for me it has proven to be a winner now that I have used it a bunch of times.

Photo demonstrating ‘hinges’ (see link above)

I have also since moved on to a sit pad (similar to the GG sit pad) and am super happy with the thinner material as back pad for my Zero. It fits perfectly for this use

[James Marco]

I typically carry around an 8-10 pound base weight. But like Nick says, it is not the base weight you carry, but everything needed for camping. My total pack weight (when I leave from a trail head) is will vary between 22 and 27pounds for up to two weeks out. Your TOTAL pack weight is what you need to carry.

And yes, it all fits into my old Murmur 2012 model for two weeks or the 2015 model for 1 week. The 2017 model is actually larger being thicker bodied(6″) than the older versions at 4″, though the specs have not changed. I typically use my 2012 model as a training pack, every day, at 30 pounds. With a partner, I use an old MiniPosa. The somewhat larger volume and weight carrying capacity means more conveniences on the trail. But, these packs are NOT for a a less experienced person. For a full two weeks out, I use a cut and fan-folded NightLite pad in 5 layers. Most packs out there do not let you do this, though several pack makers provide an option for it. A Zpacks Nero uses this, but you need to change out the elastic for a solid piece of tieable line. NEVER be afraid to modify the pack to meet your personal specs!!

You also need about 5 years of refinement of techniques and how to maximize use of fuel, water treatment and bodily hydration needs, knowledge of food density and pack-ability, knowledge of tarps/tents and how to set up various configurations, have adaptability to varying terrain, have smaller & light weight gear, and how to maximize warmth/weight at night and the things you can do to change these careful calculations to something more in your favor when (not “if”) it gets cold or wet, you run out of something or something “breaks.” Some knowledge of foraging, fishing and perhaps some rather illicit trapping could come in handy, but never count on these measures. All are parts of going UL for a longer thru. I would not recommend anything at 35L or less. And these only if you meet the above criteria and have some knowledge. No, not recommended for most hikers.

Cuben and various laminates are quite strong. They make good packs. But, they are also way over-done when it comes to light weight. This makes them *heavy.* The choice between capacity and durability vs strength for carrying your backpacking load is your decision. None of us can tell you one pack over another is “better.” ULA, MLD, and others all make good packs. With minor modifications similar to Zpacks Nero, you can add a support pad for loads up to 30 pounds. A support pad is also dual use for sleeping in summer, and, additional padding when it gets cold in Spring & Fall. Personally, I think of this as a requirement. With anything less than 30 pounds, pushing the load further from your back isn’t a real problem.

In all cases, fit is important. All packs have minor quirks in loading on your hips. All have differing widths of shoulder straps and the gap between them. Some even have load lifters to adjust how they sit on your shoulders. Or, adjust how they sit on your hips. Most people can carry a small or medium, or, a medium or large…only those very small or very tall people have trouble with overall size. But, do not be afraid to try different packs. All companies offer a return. Some will fit you perfectly after adjustments. Some will never fit. Again, your choice to fit your body.

A good starter pack would not be the Gorilla. I tried two of these and they were WAY over padded. While sort-of nice when you first put them on and for a mile or so, they can lead to a lot of problems with movement, both up and down and side to side leaving your hips and shoulders sore at the end of a hot day. Or, mod the pack to remove a lot of the excess padding, especially if you are in shape for hiking. Less padding (like 1/8″-3/32″) will be much better, especially on long trips where you will get wet a few times or plan a trip in bad weather. Removing 3/8″ padding and replacing it with 1/8″ padding will mean a much better and more stable fit. But, again, you might like all the excess padding…your choice.

I also prefer wide shoulder straps. I have packs with shoulder straps that measure from 2-1/4″ to 3-1/2″. I much prefer the wider straps.

Weight of a pack is very important. Any true UL pack will not weigh more than 16oz. Yes, you can go lighter. Commercial packs are available in the range of 6oz, but not at a 35L(~2200ci) capacity. This is useful for day hikes and long distance UL trips. UL is what seems to be your goal at 10 pounds. SUL means an 8oz pack or less. For lightweight, you need a 16-32oz pack. Many, if not most, pack makers are adding weight for conveniences to UL packs to make them more durable and easy to use. You can easily strip off a couple ounces of those things that are usually not used. Extra strapping, extra plastic, substitute smaller straps & clips for torso straps, eliminate unused adjuster points, remove unused “daisy” chains, etc. Again, do *not* be afraid to mod a pack once you determine the fit.

Anyway, Good Luck in your quest!

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