Flat Tarp Noob Qs

[Matthew / BPL]

I just picked up a 5×9 flat tarp with LineLocs and I’ve been experimenting with it in the yard today. Unfortunately the tarp does not have a grommet on the tieout to secure the tip of my trekking poles like MLD does on the ridgeline and midpoint connections. I’m wondering how best to deal with this. So far I have tried Clove-Hitch’ing around the trekking pole grips but I don’t like this option because it makes a groove in my cork grips. Also I don’t like how the LineLoc is between the pole and the tarp rather than pointing down at the stake.

I also tried a small loop of line to catch the tip of the pole up against the basket. This works ok but the basket (the smaller “trekking basket” on my BD pole) is sawing against the cord.

I could pick up a ZPacks Trekking Pole Cup but I’d rather DIY something. I don’t have a sewing machine so any ideas here would be appreciated. I also don’t want to wait eleventeen weeks for the pole cups to show up…

So, any ideas about how to deal with trekking poles and tarps would be appreciated.

[Nick Gatel]

Can you post a couple pictures?

 

[Chad B]

I like a clove hitch around the trekking pole tip.  I have the same BD baskets on my poles so I know what you are talking about, just seat the line between the “teeth” of the basket.  Another option, put the baskets on upside down when you go to set up the tarp.

Also, if the webbing is long enough, you could slip the trekking pole tip between the lineloc and the edge of the tarp.

I think the trekking pole cups take away from the simplicity of a flat tarp.  Just my opinion, so obviously do whatever works for you.

Here’s a photo I found showing the pole tip inserted through the webbing behind the lineloc and the pole basket upside down.

 

[John Klinepeter]

With a search I found a Ryan Jordan video that gives Chad a +1 in using a clove hitch on the pole tip. Go to the eight minute mark.

Edit: having trouble displaying link. Try going to ryanjordan.com

[Matthew / BPL]

Nick, I’ll try to post some photos tomorrow.

Chad, flipping the basket seems like a good idea. Or maybe I should just lose the baskets. As an Arizona hiker, three baskets don’t do me a give me much function…

John, I can’t find the video. I’d be interested in a link if you can post it.

[James holden]

just as a warning the following requires a bit more knot tying knowledge

theres are several knots that work even on carbon fiber/aluminum trekking poles. these are pretty well known

the easiest to tie is called the FB (asola) knot after the famous franz bachmann (inventor of the different bachmann knot)

basically you take a short length of cord tied in a loop, tie an overhand knot to form an additional bight, and the wrap it around the pole several time (the more wraps the more friction) and pull it back through that bight (upside down kleimheist basically) … at that point you can put a microbiner through the end and either clove hitch the guyline (or just keep an onverhand/fig 8 permanently) that normally rather than the pole handle

i have personally tested this setup with 2-3 mm nylon cord to 30-40 lbs with no slip on carbon fiber poles … in fact tests on variations of this knot by heinz prohaska decades ago showed no slippage on ski poles with a 100 KG loads

the knot is also exceptionally easy to move up or down the pole …. you can adjust the tarp height that way with fixed poles

its also pretty easy to setup as well … just precut and tie the cord loops for the FB …

when setting up wrap the cord around, put it through, and then put the biner on …

clove or overhand the guyline on the biner … and wrap the tarp side of the guyline once or twice around the pole to add stability

the knot will work on either shaft end … though using it on the tip end below the basket gives you the most pole length and is perhaps better as the tapper is from narrower -> thicker

as to line locks … dont use em …use a blakes hitch at the peg end for adjustment … its stronger and easy to adjust

the FB knot was invented to hold full body weight on thin steel wires (via ferrata) … so needless to say holding up a tarp on thick shafts is childs play for it

;)

[James holden]

The setup …

all knots except the FB knot are pretied if you do it properly …. And th FB knot is pretty easy to tie

one would of course use a micro carabiner and perhaps 2mm cord for the FB

for fixed length poles this allows u to adjust the height easily as long as you arent fighting the taper (put em baskets up)

if you really wanted to you could tie in the line loc (or blakes hitch) right after the carabiner and adjust everything from there … since the length of the guyline from the tarp to the pole (and the knot that clips to the carabiner) is fixed

in fact if you set it up al the lines the right way one could easily drop the tarp without ever getting out from under it in a storm, re-pegging, re-guying… all the lines and and height adjustments are done from with a few simple pulls from under the tarp

[Kevin Babione]

I have, and really like, the trekking pole cups from ZPacks.  They often don’t have wait times on the accessories.  Although I had my tarps made with grommets for my trekking pole tips I switched to the pole cups after small critters nibbled on my trekking pole handles (which were touching the ground).  I get it that they like the sweat on the handles, but it’s a little frustrating to find that they no longer feel as good in the hand.

Whatever you do find a way to keep your handles up!

[John Klinepeter]

Matthew,

Trying again with a different computer.  Link to RJ video:

Edit:  I give up.  The link will just not appear.  Try typing in the hard way “ryanjordan.com/how-to-pitch-tarp-trekking-poles-video/” with the usual “h  t  t  p  :  /  / ” appended to the front.  i hope this nonsense will post without disappearing.

JK

[Link .]

Andrew Skurka’s

My Guyline System for Tarps

Here is the video that John was trying to link for you

How to Pitch a Tarp with Trekking Poles

[John Klinepeter]

Thanks, link.

[Nick Gatel]

I am not a gear expert, so take what I say with a grain of salt is needed. Some thoughts via my experiences, especially where wind comes into play with shelters.

One of the reasons mids do so well in wind is because the pole is part of the structure, that is, it is in contact with the shelter material. The further away a pole is from the shelter, the less integrated the pole is to the structure and things are more prone to movement, loosening guylines, pulled stakes, and collapse.

Chad’s picture is ideal, in my option. The pole is part of the structure and the basket will help prevent a pole disconnect in wind or possible problems when a basket is not used and knots are used to keep it in place. In Ryan’s video the front pole location is ideal. His rear pole, far from the tarp provides much less structure to the shelter, and can sway in stronger winds — Ryan did point out that a stick could be used, but he showed an example how and where a fixed pole can be attached, a good example of options. With an adjustable pole, it would be best to attach it like the front pole. I have done it all sorts of ways, but as close as possible to the tarp is best. This is the reason I have moved exclusively to mids. They aren’t much heavier than flat tarps, plus I don’t use trekking poles, so I only need to carry one shelter pole. Mids don’t give you any pitching options, other than how high the tarp is above the ground. There are always plus and minuses with any shelter option. I used to use the thin line like Ryan’s but have moved to thicker line as the line and stakes are the weakest links. I have also moved away from itty bitty Ti stakes, preferring Groundhogs or longer Easton stakes. But keep in mind that I only set up a shelter when the weather is bad.

[Matthew / BPL]

Argh. It’s so unfair that I have to work today. I’d rather be in my backyard obsessing over tarp setup…

Eric, thanks very much for your ideas. I’ve been thinking about your approach and what I like about it is that the line would pass through the loop:carabiner so that the tension from my beloved LineLocs would do more than just pull the tarp towards the pole. I didn’t explain that well but basically I wonder if a “pulley” rather than a fixed point would tension better and allow me to move the pole without the awkward clove hitch. I could do this with my poles tip-up with a simple loop larksheaded around the pole tip. A tiny welded aluminum ring would be a really nice low-friction point to allow the guyline to pass through easily. I may stop at Ace Hardware on my way home and get a small (heavy) welded steel ring to try this out tonight.

John, thanks. I’ll try the video again later.

Kevin, I 100000% agree about that handles up is preferable. Maye I’ll just order the pole cups and see if I like them. They aren’t expensive…

Link, I’ve seen those videos a long, long time ago. Thanks for reminding me about them. I’ll watch tonight hopefully.

[Link .]

Mathew, I only posted 1 video and it is the one that John was having trouble getting his link to work on, but you are welcome.

[Matthew / BPL]

Nick, that makes a ton of sense. It seems inevitable that I will try out a mid (or a Trailstar) at some point as I churn through gear.

Link, I stand corrected. I figured the Skurka thing was a video but I now remember that it is a blog post. I remember that his variation of the Trucker’s Hitch named after his friend and his preference for line that is not stupid-light. I’ll read and watch tonight. Thanks again for the links.

[Link .]

But you have seen the Ryan Jordan video already since you said you had seen both videos already is that right? Just curious.

[Matthew / BPL]

Nope. I have not seen the Ryan Jordan video yet. I will tonight. I totally misread your first message and thought both links were from Skurka.

[James holden]

matthew …

heres more details on the setup

the red cord is for the FB knot … it has 2 overhands in it to form the gap

the blue cord is for the guyline to the tarp … it has one overhand loop at the end, one part way in … in this case i have a blakes attaching to the bottom part of the guyline (black), you would simply have a line loc 3 there

the loop end of the blue cord girth hitches into the tarp tie out … just leave it attached permanently or use a biner for quick setup

the red cord is tied in an FB knot on the pole and a biner clipped through …. takes like 5-10 sec

the blue cord is then looped around the pole a few times and the overhand mid way is clipped to the biner ..

i didnt show it here but you can clip the side going to the tarp back into the biner for additional stability

heres a higher pitch for ventilation

this is a crappy quick and dirty demonstration, in reality you would cut the blue cord a bit shorter and put the blakes/lineloc close to the pole

and heres the pitch dropped for more storm like weather …

if you use blakes/linelocs on the guy outs (i just used tentioners in this example) you could adjust everything from inside the tarp

note that this allows users of fixed poles to adjust the height of their pitch easily

you can also try clipping the tarp directly to the biner … but ive found this to be much less stable

the extra wraps of the blue cord around the pole add quite a bit of stability, the more wraps the more stable …

the setup is as stable as a clove hitch one, is easily adjustable, doesnt take much more time if you have everything pre-tied … it does weight slightly more as you need a bit of extra cord and a micro carabiner …

but i GUARANTEE that almost no one else on the trail will know the setup … and theyll probably ask how to do it

even in climbing virtually no one knows the FB knot (or the original hedden knot its based upon)

;)

 

[Bill Noellert]

Eric, just curious if you thought a Klemheist/Prusik would serve the same purpose and whether you need the biner.  I’m thinking:

line leaves the tie out -> through loop at end of Klemheist -> around pole -> back through loop -> stake.

Unfortunately my tarp is out for repair or I would try myself…

[James holden]

hey bill

the FB (and hedden its based on) is the superior knot for this application … its easy to tie, easy to remember, doesnt deform under loads, etc …. 6+ wraps will hold 30+ lbs on poles (scale below is inverted)

the prussik works but is a bit harder to die and deforms more … the kleimheist is just an upside down hedden with less holding power, i wouldnt bother with that

as to not using carabiners … i wouldnt simply run a line through … for stability the line from the tarp to the pole needs to be fixed … this is done above with the overhand knot at the biner … splice on a line lock or blakes after the pole on the guy side for adjustment (this will all be premade) … its easier to think of it as simply extending the tie outs

to do it without biners

• clove the guyline (blue) to the pole below the FB
• run the peg end of the line through the FB bight
• in reality (and contrary to the pic above) you would have a line loc or blakes pretied in right after it feeds in the pole and bight … or one could use a single line and have the adjustment at the peg end pulley stile (micro line loks)

using a biner is faster and easier however especially when setting up in adverse conditions …

one important point is that when tying the FB, give it a good tug to set it … and make sure theres a gap between it and the guyline on the pole, and that the fulcrum point is above the guyline wraps (the blue line has to be pulling down on the red, that what give the knot the stability) … as if theyre all tangled the FB may slip (which its designed to do under direct pressure for ascending ropes) … also move the clove a high as possible so it doesnt slip upwards, just make sure theres still a good gap

for example this is poorly setup as its all tangled, and the blue (guyline) isnt pulling down on the red (FB) at all … contrast with the pic above

when tying friction knots neatness counts … if youre all messed up with em climbing, you die …

;)

[John G]

I do mine the simple way – stick the pole tip between the two ends of the webbing sewn to the tarp.

 

If I have fixed length poles and want a lower tarp – then tie a clove hitch around the pole. But “tie” is almost the wrong word.

Wrap the line around the pole so that the “wrap” is under the wad of line that will eventually go to the tent peg. Then let out about 12-18″ of line and make a circle in it – just like the one you forms by wrapping it around pole. Then flip the circle over and drop it over the end of the pole. The wad of line and the line going to the tarp should both come out of the middle layer. The end layers are the two loops.

Ta-da — a clove hitch with no threading the long piece of line through the middle of the knot by hand :)

[James holden]

john …

are you talking about a simple clove hitch around the pole?

if so … i measure slippage starting at ~5lbs with 3mm cord on alum and carbon fiber poles in the DOWNWARDS direction

if you face em baskets up so that yr using the taper to your advantage the slippage started at ~10-15 lbs

;)

[Matthew / BPL]

Ok, I watched Ryan Jordan’s video but I literally fell asleep twice. I’ll try it again later with some coffee…

That said, I have tried a solution that I feel pretty good about. I tied a couple small loops with some extra cord and larksheaded them to the tip end of my trekking poles. I borrowed a small aluminum ring from my son (it was from an old hard drive he took apart) and used it on one of the loops

Positives: With respect to Eric, I really like not having a fixed connection between the pole and the line. It allows me to reposition the pole more easily and seems to pass the load to the stake rather than focusing the tension on lifting the tarp to the pole.

Negatives: I’m still using my poles handle-down. I’d rather use them the other way around. I’m thinking about maybe trying this with some extra grosgrain ribbon I have and larksheading onto my cork grips. My thought is the larger surface area of the grosgrain would prevent my line from wearing grooves into my cork grips.

Suggestions please: Any ideas where to get a small welded aluminum ring? I like how this works with a metal ring. It’s has lower friction than cord alone and would wear better. I’ve not found anything on Amazon or Grainger. Another option might be a delrin wire thimble (like what is used with aircraft cable) if I can find it.

Photos:

[Matthew / BPL]

I just remembered I have these tiny metal biners I bought before Franco showed me the light concerning mitten clips. I just stress tested one and they seem quite strong. I think I have my finished solution for tip-up tarping rather than welded metal rings. I’ll probably have a harder time losing these because I can clip them onto the tarp when I fold it up and stuff it in my pack  

[Nick Gatel]

Matt

If you place the tip through the sewn in loop, like Chad and Ryan, it is the method to get the pole closest to the tarp, which means the most solid structural point, less fiddle factor, and the quickest setup. I know it “seems” best to put the tip in ground to secure it, but the handle end on the ground has more surface area, so less likely to settle over night, and it isn’t going to damage the cork. It’s the keep it simple solution.

[Author]

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