Dyneema wishlist – feedback wanted

[Pierre Descoteaux]

Plus 1 for what Ryan P said. I would love to make alpine climbing packs out of such a fabric!

[Colin Krusor]

I agree with several others here. It’s unfortunate that lightweight shell and shelter fabrics are not yet possible with UHMWPE, but a tight plain weave 50 denier pure Dyneema fabric would be wonderful. I think North Sails might have used a 50d pure UHMWPE fabric face on one of their laminates in the past. The lightest pure UHMWPE fabric that I’ve seen in outdoor gear is 210d.

[Colin Krusor]

John-Paul, I think those other fibers you mentioned are not really drop-in replacements for Dyneema. Tightly woven Kevlar for apparel applications is available, and Vectran cloth is available in some stiffer, heavier styles from a couple of European distributors. Kevlar, Twaron, and Technora are heavier than Dyneema, they absorb a lot of water, they are abrasive, and they are much more sensitive to sunlight than Dyneema. Vectran is also heavier than Dyneema and more sensitive to sunlight, but it is not abrasive or absorbent. Kevlar (and relatives) and Vectran are both about half of the specific tenacity (strength per unit weight) of the stronger grades of Dyneema.

Zylon exceeds Dyneema’s strength a little when new, but Zylon would be an unwise choice for outdoor gear. It is rapidly destroyed by water and sunlight, and several people have died when old Zylon bulletproof vests failed to protect them. Zylon is only practical for very short term use, or use in very protected environments.

[Justin T]

Kyle, I would love some of the 2-3 oz dyneema composite hybrids like the HMG pack material available on your website!

[Russell Biser]

A woven non woven laminate as abrasion resistant as xpac x51, permanently waterproof, UV resistant etc., yet significantly lighter gets my vote.

[Hoosier T]

Reviving this thread to see if @kcbaker-2 has made any headway. I realize you’ve been busy with the move, new hammock fabrics, etc. Nonetheless, wanted to see if you had given any thought to the requests here? My vote would be for a Woven/Non-Woven dyneema like CiloGear uses (Dyneema Composite-formerly cuben fiber laminated to the back of 50d woven dyneema). I’m sure it would be very expensive but a pack would only need a yard so even if it came out to $80 for a yard of it, I would still save a ton over buying a pre-made pack and would have a state of the art material.

[Adam Kilpatrick]

I’d love to see some full woven dyneema fabrics. I don’t care so much if waterproof or not. I’ve been thinking lately that an Arctic1000 style ZPacks ArcHaul would be awesome. Swap and change pack pack depending on the mission (doing an FKT? Stick in that .5/.75oz cuben bag…). a 50denier woven dyneema fabric would be perfect for most of the main bag for that. Waterproofness not needed, swappable drybag does that.

[Hoosier T]

In addition to the obviously desirable woven dyneema, perhaps we could see it in black. That would be better than Christmas.

https://www.dsm.com/products/dyneema/en_GB/technologies/dyneema-form-factors/fiber/black-dyneema.html

[Ryan Smith]

I asked Kyle about it on FB a couple months ago. He said he was having problems with how to waterproof it.

[Hoosier T]

I asked Kyle about it on FB a couple months ago. He said he was having problems with how to waterproof it.

Yea a layer of cuben fiber laminated to the back would be the way to go. This is exactly what CiloGear has created and I can only image how awesome it is.

[Ryan Smith]

Yeah, that was the advice I gave. Check out the woven/non-woven laminates from Cilogear and HMG. Really though, I would be completely fine without any sort of waterproofing, but the cuben layer may also serve to stabilize the weave.

Hoosier – Given any thought to trying the UHMWPE from Ali Express? It’s pretty cheap and comes in several weights. Bit of a crapshoot though.

[John-Paul O]

I’ve used UHMWPE from aliexpress on the bottom of a pack as an extra extra durable layer on top of an already durable D40 bottom. Preventing the fibers at edges from pulling through over time is difficult.

Probably greater than 1/4″ seam allowances and folding over 1-2x near the edges to try to keep it all together before you sew it to another fabric and into the pack. Or maybe serging or quadruple stitching inside of the seam allowance to reduce slipping over time.

There are some pics of wear over time on D40 and woven UHMWPE on my pack near the bottom of the page, here:

Alpine 25-35L bag project

I can’t recall the UHMWPE I used and it is a crapshoot as the same weight from different vendors can have tighter or looser weaves.

If you wanted to have a dimensional stabilized weave you could sew UHMWPE to some x-pac or cuben using a grid pattern and dyneema/spectra/UHMWPE thread, but then you loose the waterproof nature in the bulk of the stack of the material and not just at the seams.

Laminating to cuben or x-pac is the way to go. Probably not very easy for a hobbiest. I think that it is likely that cilogear and HMG’s woven dyneema/non-woven dyneema material has a face fabric that still has some polyester in it to help with bonding, just maybe less than D40.

[Hoosier T]

A crapshoot indeed. With so many good fabric options out there I don’t care to risk ordering from AliExpress. It’s worth the wait if someone like RSBTR brings one to market with clear properties that we know we can trust. I wonder what the weight would be for a 50D woven Dyneema with a cuben variant laminated to it. It would be ideal if it came out to 6oz or so.

[Hoosier T]

Speaking of D40, anyone know where to get it these days? That’s what I really wanted to use for my latest pack build but Cascade no longer sells it. They didn’t have a yard laying around which is all I needed. Perhaps that would be a good place to start if RSBTR could pick up D40 as an offering until a Woven dyneema can be produced for them.

[Ryan Smith]

Surprisingly, I’ve seen 3-4 instances of D40 showing quite a bit of wear & tear. Granted anyone using D40 plans to really be tough on a pack.  Probably the polyester in the warp.  Either way, X51 or 1000D might be a suitable substitute for a pack bottom.

[Hoosier T]

Thanks, Ryan. Pulled the trigger on some X51 for my pack bottom. Hopefully the next pack I decide to build will be with something new that Kyle brings to market. :)

[Lawson Kline]

I don’t think we will see any 50d woven fabrics from Dyneema for quite some time due to how expensive the yarn is.    Its not a matter of technology, but cost.    Last time I checked the 50d was $850lb.  For comparison, generic run of the mill 50d nylon is about $3lb.

Chineema (Chinese Knockoff Dyneema) is much cheaper.  50d is usually about $200lb.   BUT Its inferior to the quality of Dyneema and Spectra.  It has filamentation issues (broken filaments), its not as strong, and its more toxic to produce (or so I hear).  I guess the Chinese gel their yarn with more toxic ingredients than DSM and Honeywell.   So the lower cost comes at a price not only for the environment but also in regards to quality.

That said, if you think Cuben is expensive.  Sticker shock would be an understatement with a 100% woven 50d Dyneema Cloth.  My guess is that it would cost 10-20x as much.  I am sure Kyle can confirm this better.

Just my $.02..

 

[Hoosier T]

Interesting. Are heavier yarns significantly less expensive, say 150D dyneema? I think that would still be great for pack material and still fairly light for its strength.

 

[Lawson Kline]

Yes that is correct.  The higher the denier/dtex the less costly per lb. BUT even 4800d Spectra/Dyneema is still VERY expensive.  There is a reason this fabric is not being made.  The cost is too high..

My theory with everything is this… The companies that would like to see something like this made don’t have the capital to make it, and the companies that have the capital to make it are smart enough not to risk it on something like this.   I wish this wasn’t the case, but an investment like this is risky and could put you out of business.

That said, if Kyle could make it he wouldn’t have to worry about any competition for a while.

[Hoosier T]

The fabric is being made, just not by anyone who will sell it. HMG and Cilogear both use it on select packs.

[Lawson Kline]

HMG and Cilogear are making 50d woven Dyneema fabric?

[Hoosier T]

Not 50d, I was just referencing woven dyneema in general being made.

[Lawson Kline]

Oh ok.  What denier they are using?

[Mike T]

Hi Kyle,

I bought quite a bit from RBTR last year, but my projects stalled! I’m now building a cuben/Dyneema shelter.  I’d like to see more fabrics that you’ve teased us with!

Also, a lot of these forums mention more cuben bonding options other than just purely tape, like 3M primer and things.  I’ve no idea, yet, what they are for, but I’d like RBTR to stock them!

Cheers, great company!

 

[Hoosier T]

@mikeskisandflies

A couple things on your above post. 1) A lot of the conversation in this thread is around woven dyneema. This material would not result in a lightweight material that you would want to use for a shelter. I don’t see anyone, including Kyle, putting in too much effort to trump the current .51 and .74 dyneema composites that are the bread and butter for shelters. The market just doesn’t call for it right now. It’s really calling for other applications of Dyneema such as the aforementioned woven variant that would be good for thinks like packs.

2) You appear to have some confusion on bonding. The 3M primer you have read about is just that, a primer. It’s not a bonding agent but rather a primer some people choose to use before laying down their double sided tape. I don’t find it necessary but some like to use it. The other form of bonding is using Seam Grip, which would be messy to use for an entire shelter but some have gone that route. Kyle stocks both double sided tape and seam grip so he has both of the current bonding methods available to you.The only thing I don’t believe he carries is the 3M primer.

Hope that helps.

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