Darcy Piceu – JMT Supported FKT attempt (NOBO)

[Allen C]

Just got back from a run with my wife, I’m almost sad I missed all the drama…You guys sure know how to blow up a guy’s phone though! ;)

irunfar posted this pic and says she got the women’s FKT: https://twitter.com/iRunFar/status/909537540666822656/photo/1

 

[Ralph Burgess]

Comments on Peter’s FKT site.

http://fastestknowntime.proboards.com/post/5334/thread

I heard from her crew. Finish time was 12:06pm. That puts her under Leor’s time from Whitney Summit, but over his Portal time.

But:

Looks like from photos on Betsy Nye’s page that she took part of the mist from top of nevada falls and crossed back to jmt above vernal falls.

This was anonymous, and I don’t know what/where Betsy Nye’s page is.  Any ideas?

[jscott]

Yeah the Mist Trail can reconnect to the JMT above Vernal, as is stated. It’s a bit of a climb to do so, going in the wrong direction. I would guess that this ‘maneuver’  MIGHT save about 20 minutes overall—or not. It’s slow going down the Mist trail if you’re tired–dangerous really, it’s extraordinarily steep for about 500 feet of descent–I’m guessing here. On the other hand, the JMT is a mostly smooth concrete surface that’s ideal for running or very fast walking. You certainly would not run down the upper portion of the Mist trail. No, you pick your way carefully.  And then the climb back up to the JMT is a straight time loss. Factoring this last bit in, you might save a half mile, or a bit more, by using the Mist trail. I honestly don’t think that it would make a good strategy if done deliberately, but maybe so. Anyway, given the incredible distance that’s covered on this race, I’d hate to see the Mist trail upending a possible record time.

[Ralph Burgess]

I’d hate to see the Mist trail upending a possible record time.

For sure, but where do you draw the line?   John Tidd put in an equally amazing performance going SOBO in under 3 days, but abandoned up 0.25 mile short of Whitney summit, unable to find the trail in mist and darkness.   A big part of this challenge is keeping everything together in extreme sleep deprivation.   I think you have to run the route.   I think it’s more open to debate when there’s a forced detour, due to a fire or something.   But just taking a wrong turn?   I don’t know.

Re the trail – on a weekend at midday with thousands of tourists around, I’m almost certain that the route she took was slower than the JMT.

[jscott]

I’m almost certain that the route she took was slower than the JMT.

Agreed—especially since she was still moving well. The JMT from the top of Nevada Falls is a racetrack. The top of the Mist trail would be the steepest portion of the whole route, I’d think. (I haven’t done Whitney). It’s  narrow, often crowded and slow, as Ralph says.

 

[Adam White]

This was posted to Peter’s FKT site after the original post:

Photo is on Facebook page for Nye. Bummed for her that it looks like she missed a turn that close to the end.

You may need to be “friends” with Betsy Nye to see the photo, and she hasn’t accepted the friend request from my shady-assed Facebook pseudonym persona yet.

I am surprised that there’s much deliberation about the issue. I had assumed it would be fairly black and white: The JMT FKT is for the fastest known time for someone hiking the JMT, not the JMT with alterations. Assuming speculations about her route are true, then Darcy missed 1.3 miles or so of the JMT. Sure, she hiked an equally difficult (or more difficult) alternative, but that’s really not the point. She missed 1.3 miles of the JMT.

If John got down to Whitney Portal, then turned around and said “I’ll just make up the distance, and go back up at least 0.25 miles and a few hundred feet, then turn around again,” would we all be nodding, saying, “Good enough. He got the distance and elevation gain; let’s call it good.”?

No of, course not. John’s effort was absolutely awesome. So was Darcy’s. Both belong in the Annals of Fastpacking History. Unfortunately, neither represent the fastest known time along the JMT.

We could call it that–we could call it a JMT FKT–and I’d sure feel better about Darcy. But what do we tell the next person who attempts one: You can take some alternatives, if it’s a mistake? Or, all alternatives are fair game, so long as the distance and elevation are equal? Or what? I think it gets subjective very quickly, and I think there should be little room for subjectivity in a race along a defined route.

[Allen C]

Wow, the JMT is truly a Drama Magnet. To some extent, I can see both sides of this one – while with John Tidd it was clearly a failure to reach the summit/end of the trail, in this case Darcy reached the end but took an alternate route for a short distance, presumably by accident? Tough call. There is however some history with the mist trail – See below from Peter’s FKT site:

Women’s unsupported FKT: Jacqueline Florine set the women’s unsupported FKT on the JMT, 6d6h53m from Happy Isles to Mt. Whitney Summit (6d12h27m TH to TH), set Aug. 27 – Sept. 2, 2005. Her trip report is here. Note that Florine used the Mist Trail out of Happy Isles, rather than the “official” JMT route, and from the summit of Whitney she descended via the Mountaineer’s Route. Her record was broken by Michelle “MJ” Jung, 6d11h35m from Whitney Portal to Happy Isles (6h6h5m from the summit) on Sept. 16-22, 2013.

Darcy’s sponsors are already calling it an FKT…and yet Peter seems to be silent so far, presumably waiting for more information and weighing the effects before making the call? If she does get the “Official” FKT then does that mean all future FKT’s have their choice of the Mist Trail or the “Official” JMT? Which then brings up the question of what other variations are acceptable – can you do the MTR cutoff and still call it an FKT – for instance to pick up a resupply on a self-supported effort? what about other possible variations near Red’s Meadow – and for that matter what about Kurt’s alternate route that he took due to fires between Yosemite and Tuolumne? As Adam implies, where do you draw the line?

Is it OK to skip part of the “Official” trail if you are a famous, sponsored high level ultra-runner with high level credibility, crew, etc, but not OK if you are just a regular guy like Kurt or John Tidd? Thorny issues for sure.

[John T]

Darcy clearly had an amazing run…even with the wheels coming off a bit on the 3rd night on the Thousand island/Tuolomne section. Clearly substantially faster mens times are possible. About the mist trail detour. In my humble opinion, if it’s a small detour of equivalent distance/time it’s irrelevant. Over 200+ miles it’s not easy to know what is the official trail…the Yosemite section is a maze…the Whitney Portal/summit section has no official trail and multiple options. Would my run have been disqualified given that I went around a snow field on Mather in the middle of the night as the icy snow was not passable? the route through the snow is different every year on all the snowy passes. The route isn’t the same for every step of the JMT. How many of the old FKT followed 100% of the official route? Was Leor’s run disqualified because he used a sleeping bag carried by a pacer? Was Andy’s run unsupported given that he got batteries for his spot from a hiker…purity isn’t easy. My view is that Darcy clearly has the fastest “official” :) FKT on the JMT…which is Whitney summit to Yosemite and if the FKT governing body takes the official title away for a minor detour on the mist trail that would be a mistake. Put an asterisk next to her record if you want but she clearly earned and deserves the title.

[Peter Bakwin]

<p style=”text-align: left;”>I want to be clear about what they did. Darcy says “The only part in the end was we almost went down to the falls but then had to switch back up to the JMT trail.” This seems consistent with the Delorme pings showing that they missed the bridge above Nevada Falls and went down the Mist Trail, crossed the bridge above Vernal Falls and climbed back up to the JMT at Clark Point, then followed the JMT down to the end. Is this what others are seeing? My guess is that they were in too much of a hurry, but they should have known to cross above Nevada Falls – that’s just basic route knowledge. My leaning is with John – it’s a minor route variation & certainly an “asterisk” on her trip, but I’d be hard pressed to call it a DQ. ?</p>

[Allen C]

Not that my opinion matters much, but FWIW, after thinking about this some more and considering John’s, Ralph’s, and Peter’s opinions I now agree that Darcy should hold the official Women’s FKT, with a small asterisk noting the minor deviation. I also think John Tidd should get very prominent honorable mention on the FKT page as his effort was truly a game-changer, even if he didn’t quite finish.

Well done John, and well done Darcy. Both of you have set new standards and literally changed the definition of what is considered possible on the JMT. Not to mention both of you have been completely honest and forthright about what you have done, which to my mind is actually the most important thing of all.

[Ralph Burgess]

I posted my thoughts in response to John’s comment over on Peter’s site, here.
http://fastestknowntime.proboards.com/post/5339/thread

I gather Peter plans to record Darcy’s run as the women’s FKT,  but given the route error and only an 18min difference, Leor’s FKT from both Portal and Summit still stands.  That seems correct and fair to me.

I think also that this doesn’t need to be completely binary.  We’re not talking about a photo finish for an Olympic gold medal here.  As John has pointed out, over 200 miles there are almost inevitably deviations, minor or otherwise, of various kinds.    I do think that route deviations (errors or otherwise) should be noted in the record,  so as not to devalue the importance of backcountry skills including accurate navigation as a critical component of these efforts: it’s not just about running.   And subjectively people can make of that what they choose – but surely nobody will feel that this is anything more than the tiniest blemish on a fantastic FKT from Darcy.

Likewise, as Allen says – John Tidd’s remarkable run obviously deserves prominent recognition.   Call it what you will, I don’t know – if not technically the FKT,  John can justifiably call himself the fastest man on the JMT.

[Adam White]

Peter et al.,

I think what you’re proposing is entirely fair and just, and am glad there’s room for subjectivity and empathy in the Official Judgement of these matters.

After a bit of introspection, I think I’ve found the aspect of this that rubs me slightly the wrong way: We all agree that Darcy and her pacer committed a navigational error, then opted not to correct it. Had she corrected it, she would still have Sue’s time (by a long shot), but she wouldn’t have the summit to portal FKT. I wish she would’ve corrected it, so there could be no debate about what the right thing to do in circumstances like these are.

I know that if I were in the pacer’s shoes, I would’ve pushed to correct the error, and that would have ended up quite clearly as a punitive choice. There would obviously be no “subtracting” the time we spent backtracking, after the fact.

That’s a lesson for me to learn, not for Darcy.

I think there’s room for more philosophical debate on this topic, but definitely don’t want to crap up Darcy’s thread with navel-gazing commentary on tail-probability hypotheticals.

+1 to Allen and Ralph–awesome, awesome runs, Darcy and John!

 

[Peter Bakwin]

<p style=”padding-left: 30px;”><p style=”text-align: left;”>I’m glad people seem to be in general agreement. I emailed Darcy and she was unaware of the error, so there was no possibility for them to backtrack & correct it. There’s a confusing mess of trails there, but the fact is that they messed up. Others have gone the correct way. She was off route for 0.5% of the JMT, so it’s not comparable to Kurt’s intentional 10% detour. Hopefully this will punctuate for future runners the need to be diligent about the route!</p></p>

[Ralph Burgess]

We all agree that Darcy and her pacer committed a navigational error, then opted not to correct it. Had she corrected it, she would still have Sue’s time (by a long shot), but she wouldn’t have the summit to portal FKT. I wish she would’ve corrected it, so there could be no debate about what the right thing to do in circumstances like these are.

I know that if I were in the pacer’s shoes, I would’ve pushed to correct the error, and that would have ended up quite clearly as a punitive choice. There would obviously be no “subtracting” the time we spent backtracking, after the fact.

Yes.   Surely if Darcy had realized when she was part way down the Mist Trail, she would have backtracked, I think?   I certainly would have.   That’s why I agree with Peter’s inclination that both Leor’s records should still hold.   This is a minor navigation error, but 18 minutes is a narrow margin.

[David Thomas]

I’ve been over that stretch of trail at the top of the falls scores of times and it is a jumbled mess of paths and not at all clear what goes where.

That said, as FKT efforts get more and more competitive and electronic tracking more detailed, FKTers will need to use every advantage.  Such as hiking the trail beforehand.  I find that the second (or third, tenth, twentieth) time I hike a route, it is mentally much easier than the first.  I know how long this uphill is, where the best stream crossing is, the best water stops, etc.  Having a pacer helps with some but not all of that – unknowns weigh on our mind and prior knowledge reduces those unknowns.

I once did a 100k day hike and got a mile down the wrong spur about 6 hours in.  It is mentally very hard to realize and then correct a mistake that adds two miles to your route when you already have a very full day planned.  Even though I wasn’t going for time at all.

[Peter Bakwin]

When Buzz & I did the JMT in 2000 we made a careful note of the official route into the Valley, though we had never set foot on the JMT. Knowing the route is part of the game. They just made a dumb mistake. If it was a race she’d be DQed. But in reality there is no DQ, no race director, no official anything. There’s only what each person has done, how that’s communicated to the community, and how the community takes it. I think no one is willing to discount Darcy’s huge & phenomenal effort based on this rather small error.

[Allen C]

Jeff Kozak did a great write-up on his blog about Darcy’s run and the intrepid crew that helped her pull it off. Definitely a great read, and provides a lot of behind the scenes action that helps understand what was really going on out there while we were all watching the GPS pings from our comfortable homes and offices…

https://decomposedgraniteblog.wordpress.com/2017/09/23/killing-it-softly-darcy-piceu-and-the-john-muir-trail/

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