CPAP for backcountry.

[Anonhuman1234]

I have sleep apnia, and I am looking for suggestions for a lightweight, battery powered CPAP machine.  Thanks in advance.

 

Mike

[Jerry Adams]

I have sleep apnea.  6 years ago I talked to doc.  On my sleep study, on my side, AHI was 7.  Something like 25 on my back.  She was okay with not using CPAP on the 6 nights a month I’m backpacking if I sleep on my side.

New doc totally disagreed.  I looked at weights, something like 1.6 pounds for CPAP machine, and battery is 1.6 pounds per night?  My old CPAP machine is heavier.  You could ask your doctor about the lightest weight versions.  I think you need a prescription so you have to go through doctor regardless.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2564770/

“In summary, none of AHI, objective sleepiness, systemic blood pressure, subjective sleepiness, neurobehavioral performance, mood, or quality of life were obviously improved by CPAP in mild to moderate OSA.”

Thus, I feel okay not using CPAP while backpacking, that meta analysis of studies concluded a CPAP isn’t needed at all.  But I think I’ll continue using it 24 days a month.  Using it isn’t a big deal.  I have heard of people that haven’t tolerated CPAP.

If you have severe sleep apnea then it’s a different story.

Don’t listen to anonymous non doctors on the internet : )

[Katherine .]

Not exactly what you’re asking, but related. This is my favoritestudy ever…

“Didgeridoo playing as alternative treatment for obstructive sleep apnoea syndrome: randomised controlled trial”

https://www.bmj.com/content/332/7536/266

And hey, I met a guy who makes them out of carbon fiber!

[Edward John M]

I have developed OSA with age, diagnosed as severe. I can go without the damned machines for 3 nites with few effects but after that it becomes a cumulative effect and my health suffers. I simply cannot afford a LW travel machine so I put up with the side effects for as long as I can. UL travel machines are both expensive and use very expensive proprietory batter packs that last only 2 to 3 nites

The Resmed Air-mini is currently the smallest and lightest machine on the market that I am aware of, about the same cost as Trans-Pacific return airfares battery packs extra

<span data-offset-key=”dtj33-0-0″>https://www.resmed.com/au/en/consumer/products/devices/airmini.html</span&gt;

 

[David Thomas]

The cheapest way of getting a CPAP machine is to go to an airport, wait 10 minutes for the next, “Will the person who left their CPAP machine, please return to the security checkpoint” announcement, run up, and say, “Oh, there it is!  I’m sorry!”.

It’s not exactly stealing, more of a public service – because I’m getting really tired of listening to those announcements.

[J R]

I don’t use a CPAP, but I listen to some channels on SiriusXM that run commercials and there’s one for a portable CPAP claiming to be the world’s smallest. I believe it is this one: http://www.mytranscend.com/. Claims to be under a pound and has options for battery and solar charging.

[Bruce Tolley]

I use a Transcend for biz travel.  They sell a 2 night battery and a solar charger.  There is also a third party battery. See CPAP.com  The challenge is how to you charge something that runs a motor. If you need the humidifier, then battery life decreases.  All quoted weights usually exclude the humidifier.

[Jerry Adams]

how much does the Transcend weigh?  and the 2 night battery?

[Bruce Tolley]

The Transcend weighs 426g and the 2 night battery 1.5lbs. Then you need to add in the power supply (8 oz with all the international plug adapters), your tube and face mask.  All the specs are at CPAP.com

[Bruce Tolley]

In reference to the NIH summary. They did not measure the most important parameter: the quality of your partner’s sleep!

[Herman]

I don’t have machine recommendations, which was your question.

Have you tried to go without it in the field? If not, I’d try 1 night, then 2, etc. Give it a try if you haven’t already.

As a physician, I think the CPAP  and sleep study industry is overblown and a huge money maker.

[Jerry Adams]

Beware of clinics that also do the over night sleep study.  That is a nice money maker when the doc can prescribe the study, and then make money off that.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2542952/

A is all people in the study

B is with CPAP users excluded.

After 18 years, there’s little difference between A and B for mild sleep apnea people AHI 5 – 15.

For moderate sleep apnea people, CPAP increases your survival from about 82% to 87% – may be statistically significant.  Although you really need to have a C with non CPAP users excluded.

For severe sleep apnea people there’s a big difference.  You should definitely use a CPAP.

I think people including doctors (including ones that make money off this) lump mild and moderate sleep apnea people in with the severe sleep apnea people.

[jscott]

Yeah, no. If you’ve been diagnosed with apnea and are recommended to use cpap, listen to your doctors and not a few random people that you’ve never met on the internet.Seriously. Chances are good that it will make a huge positive difference in your life and health. You can return it if it doesn’t. So try the damn thing.

there is no vast hospital-military-industrial complex led by the Clinton foundation scamming innocent people by selling them unnecessary cpap machines.

(cue Roger…).

[Jerry Adams]

yeah, like I said, don’t listen to anonymous internet non doctors or even doctors

you might want to discuss it with your doctor though

the weight of CPAP plus batteries is almost prohibitive

[Bruce Tolley]

My wife loves my CPAP machine since I no longer snore and gasp and wake her up.

At least while I am backpacking (without the CPAP) my wife is able to sleep at home. :-))

Cheers

[jscott]

oops sorry I over reacted…I was responding to Herman, but he’s a doctor, so by my own reasoning you should listen to him not me.  It’s just that it’s really hard to get people with apnea (my brother’s wife for example) to even try cpap. Any excuse will do to put it off. I think that feeding into the ‘it’s a scam to take your money’ line of thinking is counterproductive.

I wonder if Herman has ever encountered patients who need cpap and refuse to use it to their own detriment? I have.

And yes I use cpap and yes I used to backpack without a machine. The best alternative, I suppose, is one of those dental devices that move your jaw forward. That might help and it weighs next to nothing. Expensive though.

[Jerry Adams]

I don’t think you over reacted : )

My sleep apnea doctor said the device that moves your jaw forward isn’t very effective

My wife loves my using the CPAP.

I know of people that tried to use CPAP but felt it was too uncomfortable.  I had no problem with it.  Especially if someone has severe sleep apnea they should not ignore this.  Even if it takes you from severe to moderate or mild it would be a big deal.

[Edward John M]

I’m sure that the weight of battery packs would start to drop if there was a “real” market for an UL version. but people with severe sleep apnea who also ski tour and walk overnite are probably such a small market segment it won’t happen

[jscott]

My brother’s wife has severe apnea and she just refuses to try the cpap machine, despite all of our talking. She tried the dental device and it didn’t help much, if any. I just mentioned it as a possibility for backpacking.

Of course my brother is the one who hears her stop breathing over and over during the night.

I found cpap was easy to get used to and boy it really improved how I felt during the day (I was angry and grumpy a lot of the time.)  Long term, oxygen and sleep deprivation aren’t good at all.

and dreaming again is really sweet!

 

[Edward John M]

I wish I could afford mandibular surgery and get rid of the machine

[jscott]

“mandibular surgery”

Is that where they get giant ants to use their claws to do all the delicate cutting?

[Sam Farrington]

First, should reveal my bias; namely that I’ve wasted more time with doctors than any other profession, and that includes lawyers in the mix. Also have to disclose that I bailed from a long trek in Colorado due to PVCs, which the ER doctor concluded resulted from hypoxia, or lack of oxygen. PVCs feel like your heart is stopping for a beat or two after every few beats. Scary, and enough to get out to a trail head and to a hospital.
Also have had three sleep studies that produced diagnoses of either “mild” or “moderate” sleep apnea, but have taken off a lot of weight since then.

Having said all that, I’ve found that the newer “Breathe” strips are very helpful, and have avoided further incidents since starting to use them when hiking, as well as at home and travelling. Hikes in Colorado typically reach areas from 12-13 thousand feet, but I now camp at lower altitudes, and avoid overexertion during the day. After beginning using the strips, I’ve never again been wakened by dreams of being underwater and struggling to the surface.

Tried CPAP machines years ago, and could not sleep with all that paraphernalia. Was also concerned about pulmonary problems arising after using a humidifier in the house for a winter. Someone had removed the usual filters and installed useless ones. After that, incurred the expense of drilling a new well, as the old one had been polluted by squirrels and heaven knows what else – a number of pets all died after that winter, and I was also very ill for most of the year.

That is why I have severe misgivings about the water filtering system that the CPAPS used to clean the air. Clean water is going to become scarcer than gold in the not too distant future, and how long does distilled water stay pure, assuming it was that way on the grocery shelf?. A HEPA air filter or two in the home might also be very effective. I use Austins because they are the most reasonably priced of those found effective and include a heavy carbon filter.

And I would not rule out surgery if the problems were continuing; but also think that toxic pollution is becoming an increasing threat to life and health.

[jscott]

Fair enough Sam. I also used the nasal strips in lieu of any better option, since I didn’t have a Transcend portable machine and battery. I was always able to sleep fine for many nights while backpacking. Apnea didn’t stop me one bit. (I didn’t really suffer from it knowingly until later in life.)

I used to visit an apnea forum and will just say that issues with polluted water in the humidifier case never ever came up. In any case, one could use a cpap machine without the humidifier if this was a deal breaker. Oh, and cpap machines don’t use water to filter air, bong style.They have external and internal solid filters. The external ones are easily and cheaply replaced. The water is merely to humidify the air.

I asked a doctor about surgery. My problem is anatomy, not being overweight. Surgery simply wouldn’t work for me. He suggested that this was true for most people. It’s more complicated than it might seem.

[Jerry Adams]

I don’t use humidifier

What are the symptoms of a problem that would be fixed by using a humidifier?

[DAN-Y]

Sleeping at an angle on your back might be a solution to not having to take your cpap with you. If you do take one with a humidifier equipped one will get you the most comfortable sleep says my wife ;)

Sleeping in a hammock, at an angle might help. Quotes from hammockforums.net:

nwmanitou
Hammocks and Sleep Apnea
I’m a bigger (fat) guy. I was diagnosed with severe sleep apnea. I’d quit breathing for up to 30 seconds. Often dozens of times an hour. I’ve been working on it though. Joined a gym, been working out consistently since January and I’m now significantly healthier and leaner.

Granted my apnea is nowhere near as bad as it was before I really started hitting the gym, but it is still an issue. I like to joke that I don’t worry about bears when camping. My snoring convinces most bears that a much larger, angrier bear is already in my camp and they move along.

I’ve been experimenting a bit as of late with ways to lessen my snoring while in my hammock with some surprising success. I’d love to share this with the forum and hear any ideas you’ve tried out.

First of all I want to say that the BEST thing I’ve done for my Apnea is loosing weight. But until I’m lean enough that my Apnea goes away I’m still employing everything I can to get a good night’s rest.

What I’ve been doing is using a rolled up bath towel behind my neck when I sleep. I roll it up and keep it tight with some shock cord. I like the width of the towel because there is less chance of me sliding off of it at night. The rolled up towel forces my head back opening my airways. Tilting the head back is one of the steps to opening an airway for CPR btw. I’ve had nights were my friends say I’ve snored little or not at all. And when I have been snoring it was light and consistent… meaning though there was some obstruction, I never stopped breathing. I plan to sew together something like one of those travel neck pillows to see how that works.

I’d take a picture of my towel pillow but my wife just informed me that she used it yesterday to clean up a spill….

But in any case… I’d love to hear how others have addressed any issues with snoring or apnea.
08-10-2015, 01:39sloanie
Just getting started with sleeping in a hammock so I don’t have much in the way of suggestions yet for that specific application– but I am curious, about what diameter would you say your rolled up towel ends up being? Sounds like you sleep on your back? I’m intrigued. I do try to avoid sleeping on my back because that is when I snore the loudest and end up feeling the least rested, so in addition to learning to get comfortable in a hammock in general, I’m learning how to side sleep in them. (Actually took a nap the other day on my side and slept very soundly, so I think it’ll be a matter of just dialing that in to where I know exactly how to get comfortable each time I get in the hammock.)

I haven’t been formally diagnosed with sleep apnea, but I’m know to snore pretty loud and occasionally stop breathing for brief periods. Definitely need to get back on the gym wagon. Thanks for the reminder and for the inspiration– I could definitely stand to lose 25% of my body weight.

Oh, I had one more thought that came to mind. Over the last few years, I’ve experienced less of that sleepiness I used to get during the day due to poor sleep. I did 2 things back in fall of 2012– one for sure has helped, the other never even occurred to me to possibly have anything to do with it until just now.

1) I had a pretty bad deviated septum. Which meant half the time I couldn’t breath through my nose at all. I had that corrected with surgery and can breath so much better. My observation is that it’s easier to force open that airway breathing through the nose than it is breathing through the mouth (don’t know if there’s any substance to this observation, but I have been sleeping better since the surgery when I don’t have a cold or allergies.)

2) I started seeing a NUCCA (upper cervical) chiropractor around the same time. My x-ray showed significant degeneration of the curvature of that upper part of my spine (the ligament running through the center of the spine there had apparently been broken at some point early in my life, and those discs were just sliding forward.) I hadn’t considered it, but it’s possible that correcting this part of the spine played a role in reducing apnea. Just a thought. If nothing else, optimizing the function of the nervous system should certainly help, be it through a physical therapy such as NUCCA or just proper nutrition.

Other than that, sleeping with my head elevated seems to help– hammocks seem like they would easily allow that. (Use a foam wedge when in a bed. Makes it easier to sleep for me, for sure.)

Thanks for starting this thread. Looks like there are a couple other threads about apnea that I’ll check out now… Hadn’t even considered others had brought this up before.
08-10-2015, 02:06nwmanitou
Thanks Sloanie,

BTW, looks like we may be neighbors.. My shop is in Sandy. The towel is about 5 or 6 inches in diameter. I am normally a side sleeper, but in my hammock I seem to always end up on my back. I’ve been told that I do have a deviated septum.. I think I’ll look into that more fully.
08-10-2015, 02:32sloanie
Quote:
Originally Posted by nwmanitou View Post
BTW, looks like we may be neighbors.. My shop is in Sandy.
No kidding! Had no idea you were based in Utah. From what I’ve gathered, that’s a fairly popular stove you’ve created :) (I’m still getting in to all this ultralight / backpacking stuff.) I’m not far– grew up in Sandy, live in the Murray area right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nwmanitou View Post
The towel is about 5 or 6 inches in diameter. I am normally a side sleeper, but in my hammock I seem to always end up on my back. I’ve been told that I do have a deviated septum.. I think I’ll look into that more fully.
Yeah, my limited experience suggests the same– hammocks seem most conducive to back sleeping. I usually try to get some support via a pillow… may have to just see what happens with a roll as you’ve described. Thanks for the info!

And yeah– I was told I had a deviated septum in 2005-ish when I was having an ENT check my ears out. Kinda mentioned it in passing. Dragged my feet for a long time until I spoke with a co-worker about his experience, so I went to his ENT (in 2012, finally) and got it corrected– significant difference for me. But you might have an idea how much it’s affecting your ability to breath through your nose if you pay attention. Can’t hurt to get it checked anyways!
08-10-2015, 06:45IRONFISH45
Just for the uninformed, “www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/sleep-apnea/sleep-apnea
WebMD
Sep 2, 2014 – If left untreated, sleep apnea can result in a growing number of health problems, including: High blood pressure. Stroke. Heart failure, irregular heart beats, and heart attacks. Diabetes. Depression. Worsening of ADHD. Headaches”.

Research has shown a definite link between Sudden Cardiac Death and Sleep Apnea. I hope everyone who is having problems sleeping, find their way to a Sleep Clinic, it could save your life. I think I have had Sleep Apnea since I was 11 or 12 years old, I could never sleep well at night. I have centeral sleep apnea, my brain does not tell my body to breathe.

Things like a morning headache, sleeping in inappropriate places all sorts of little clues, not everyone is a heavy snorer, not everyone who snores has apnea.

I use a rolled up hand towel under my neck, it helps keep my spine aligned. I have had a few spinal injuries, I went from a big fluffy pillow down to a small tightly rolled towel under my neck.
08-10-2015, 07:00NYHowie
Great post guys thanks for the ideas. I have the machine and was wondering how I could work on my snoring issue as i can not take the machine with me.
08-10-2015, 08:11camps
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYHowie View Post
Great post guys thanks for the ideas. I have the machine and was wondering how I could work on my snoring issue as i can not take the machine with me.
Great post. Being a new hanger, I also wondered how I was going to help deal with it. In a tent I would just sleep on my stomach. It helped a little bit but couldn’t do more than a 3 day trip without really feeling the affects.
08-10-2015, 09:20cjayflo
https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/…37-Sleep-Apnea
08-10-2015, 09:36CoreyR
I too have sleep apnea and I use a CPAP. I bring it with me. When I car camp at least. I use a deep cycle marine battery and a small folding table, in warm weather I sit the CPAP in the table, plug into an inverter and hook the inverter to the battery. A large deep cycle can run me for up to 6 nights. This set up is also my back up for power outages at home.
In the winter, I hang the CPAP from the ridge line in my ENVY-S and run the power cord out to the inverter. If you do not do this you will be pumping frozen air into your enclosed hammock and directly into your lungs. A quick way to freeze to death.
When I canoe/kayak camp or hike, I do without the CPAP and I use a combination of nasal strips, something under my neck and hanging my hammock with the head end higher than normal. It helps a lot. I noticed that I can doze off in my lazy boy, at home, or my office chair at work (shhhhh) no problem. Sitting up and sleeping works. I experimented and found that hanging my hammock with the head higher than normal works too. Yes, I do slide down during the night and yes, I do wake up and have to “re-adjust.” Hey, it is better than no sleep at all!
My experience, FWIW. I hope it helps someone. :cool:
09-19-2015, 19:58cataraftgirl
I hate to be the grinch here, but losing weight it not a cure for obstructive sleep apnea. Losing weight, and sleep position can help decrease the severity of OSA, but it will not cure it. The most effective treatment for obstructive sleep apnea is CPAP. A small percentage of people with OSA can use a dental appliance to maintain their airway effectively. An even smaller percentage of folks are able to come off CPAP with weight loss. Losing weight is an awesome goal, but don’t count on it for getting rid of your OSA. I use CPAP 100% of the time, whether I’m at home, traveling, river rafting, or kayak camping. I asked my sleep doctor about going without the CPAP for weekend raft & kayak trips, and she told me that I might feel fine, but the only way to know would be to try it. I figure that when I’m enjoying outdoor activities, getting quality sleep, having energy, and a clear head are super important, so I don’t skip the CPAP. I have a 12V deep cycle AGM battery system that I can carry on my raft that will allow me to enjoy 8-10 day river rafting trips. I also have a lighter, more compact Li Ion battery system & solar panel that works great for 2-4 day kayak trips. After some experimentation, I’ve found that setting the machine on my camp chair beside the hammock works the best. On colder trips I’m in a tent. I have used the CPAP down to the upper-mid 30s without too much nose freeze. For me, the benefits of the CPAP are way too important not to use it in the outdoors. It does take some planning & some $$$ to make it happen.

One word of advice that really helped me. If you are just starting out on CPAP and have a choice of machines, get a Phillips Respironics instead of a ResMed. The ResMed machines require an inverter to work off 12V. The inverter sucks extra power, so you won’t get as much mileage out of your battery. The Respironics machines don’t need an inverter. The biggest hurdle to putting together a light weight, compact system is the cost of a Li Ion battery with enough power to run a CPAP machine. I use a Qi Infinity battery that costs $220. About $100 less than the ones that are sold on the CPAP websites. It weighs 3 lb. and measures 8.5 X 3.5 X 2.5 inches. I can get 2 nights off this battery and a little more with a top off from a solar panel.

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