company patent archives?

[Russell Lawson]

Hello all, I am curious if anyone has knowledge of backpack patents? I have been developing a design to fill some niche markets for my company Quest Pact and would love avoiding lawsuits.  I read Ula’s patent on their should strap attachment point, and that it expired. But curious to know if any other patents out there are restrictive of design.  thank you!

Ps. it seems like a blooming time for usa made cottage industry, but am al$ o curious as to what are your preceptions of the market for a new gear company.

[Roger Caffin]

The original patent on a backpack was filed somewhere around 3,000 BC. It has expired.
Since then there have been many minor changes, improvements, variations, plus many strange ideas which failed.

My own take on this is that ANY patent claims on backpacks can probably be invalidated with a 5 minute search. Such ‘patent claims’ are either ego-tripping by the designer, exploitation by the patent attorney, or an aggresive marketing strategy designed purely as a bluff. I would be fascinated to read of any which you think might be ‘for real’. I will do my best to blow them out of the water.

Cheers

[Kattt]

But, but …what about daisy chains on a backpack???

I seem to remember some drama ;)

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Kat

Several possible answers.

Daisy chains have been made by young girls for the last few thousand years. Some doubtless have been draped over packs.

Daisy chains are just loops, and packs have had loops on them for N years (where N is large).

The cost of sueing someone on the basis of an extremely dubious patent claim would exceed any possible royalty by a factor probably in excess of 1,000x.

Where was the drama anyhow?

Cheers

[Kattt]

Oh it was here on BPL many years ago but I am not making names.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Kat

I was intrigued, so I did a search for “patent daisy chain”. Did not get any hits which had any hint of drama, but eventually found it.
The Inefficient Backpack by Mr Steele.

I have read his patent application. I have written a couple of patents myself. He may get the patent – the PO just hands them out these days and leaves it to a court to adjudicate later. Keeps the cash flow up for everyone. But I do not think he has a hope in Hades of winning anything. Prior Art would shoot him down.

Cheers

[Kattt]

Actually it  was the thread on the Hyperlite Mountain Gear Porter/ Expedition pack. The daisy chain part was just what stuck in my mind out of that whole ordeal. Was entertaining ( and painful) to read  it all over again.

[Franco Darioli]

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/57947/#comments

you could skip to :

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/57947/page/9/#comments

Lots of old names there.

There is a Ryan Jordan for example. I see that he had something to do with designing or not packs for BPL or something.

 

Thinking about the good old days, I used to have some fun with Dan, he called a spade a spade.

Then there was a guy called Bob Gross, he made some stuff up but was good value.

Another one was a guy called Aaron Sorensen , he also designed backpacks or T shirts or  something. I don’t remember having anything nice to say about his gear but he was good value too.

Probably all dead by now.

[Mark Fowler]

Aarn Tate  https://www.aarnpacks.com/ in NZ has several patents on packs.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Mark

He does have some patents, but looking at the 1996 one for the front pockets, I would bet you could invalidate it by referencing the way various old military packs were worn with ammo pouches slung everywhere. And there have ben plenty of bushwalking packs with pouches on the shoulder straps over the years too.

All a US patent means these days is that you have filled in the paperwork and paid the fees. Then it is up to you to sue for infringement.

Cheers

[Mark Fowler]

Hi Roger

I think many patents are an exercise in personal vanity but he has at least got a few to pay up.  That’s the purpose of Innovation patents in Aus – inflate the filer’s ego until the judgement when they sue somebody for infringing it.

PS I knew Aarn many years ago and I suspect he slept with a few Early Winters catalogs under his pillow.

[Franco Darioli]

For what is worth, as usual the devil is in the detail.

The Aarn pockets rest on the waist belt (via a stay that clips onto them ) , they don’t hang on the shoulder straps like the others do.

Easy enough to copy but someone had to come up with the idea first.

[Luke F]

to try to get at the OPs question, backpack patents are incredibly interesting, but also usually incredibly specific. I have found no good way to browse them, but once you find one you can follow the rabbit hole to find other strange wonderful patents. So far I have found very few that would even be within the capabilities of most cottage manufactures even if they wanted to infringe.

Here are a few I found interesting just for fun:

https://www.google.com/patents/US7287677

https://www.google.com/patents/US4214685

https://www.google.com/patents/US20060191969

https://www.google.com/patents/US6276584

https://www.google.com/patents/US5954253

http://www.google.sr/patents/US20110108595

[Roger Caffin]

F a s c i n a t i n g . . .

Clearly we are in the wrong line of business. The money lies in being a Patent Attorney, but you have to be able to keep a straight face when talking to the client.

In fairness, I strongly suspect these patents are not there for the patentees to claim royalties off others, but to prevent others from asserting patent claims against the patentee. Defensive patenting 101 …

Cheers

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Roger, the simpler and more cost effective way to do this is to just publish your idea.  Once publicly disclosed it cannot be patented.  One of the companies that I worked for use to publish about 75% of the ideas: while being original, the concept did not merit the cost of the patent filing process.  My 2 cents

[JCH]

https://www.google.com/patents/US7287677

That first one reminded me of the North Face Pivotal backpack my buddy bought in the early 2000s.  “This thing carries 60 lbs like it is NOTHING!!!”  :)

Then I saw the date (2004) and the Assignee (The North Face Apparel Corp.).  I have to admit, it was one beautiful carry…back when we were masochistic.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Jon

I entirely agree. You might note that I have published my stoves and tents in some detail – partly for that reason.

Cheers

[Russell Lawson]

Very interesting discussion to read. Certainly reinforces my faith in designing without the unseen backlash.  As if researching a niche and starting a brand that sells weren’t hard enough, the patent concern was previously overwhelming, you’d be surprised how many patents there are for skateboard packs to sift through. It would seem every design has been designed and most innovation is perpetuated by newly invented materials.

 

Can I get a second opinion here? I am looking to start a business and have ton loads of observation on different industries and niches.  the route I plan on taking is a simple, low seam, ultralight designed pack or two but in cotton canvas to start. Sorry if you cringed, but I believe the traditional bushcraft customers are far less picky on design, just as hungry for handcrafted and forkout the same price on a duluth box pack as bpl would for top tier gear. If I can get a waxed canvas pack with the minimum required features down to the lowest weight known in that field, using cheaper materials I can refine the design and construction process, work up a business name and profit enough to roll into xpac and ultralight fabrics, so hopefully i can achieve a market share and demand to that of the simple pack.

Good idea? Bad idea? This is an attempt to not have to get a normal job while doing what I love. Thanks guys

 

[Medic16]

I know Patrick Smith from the Mountainsmith fame has a couple patents.

[Roger Caffin]

having a patent is one thing. Enforcing the patent is another matter. Lawyers cost tens of thousands of dollars, and extremely trivial differences can invalidate patents. Add in the fact that you can probably find prior art for just about anything in this game if you know where to look, and the whole thing becomes ridiculous.

You could try just going your own way while being careful to avoid exact copies. See what happens. But what would I know? I am NOT a lawyer.

Cheers

[Sam Farrington]

Hi Roger,

It is easy to take a dim view of lawyers, but some have made a big difference.

As for patent and other laws, if AU is as much of a plutocracy as the EU and US, I’m sorry to hear that.  Sometimes it is darkest before the dawn.

And I think that Jack Stephenson’s jackpack hip suspension, when coupled with belt tighteners on the sidearms, would be worth a patent.  That’s why I’m forever harping about its merits on BPL, for the same reason you and others profess.

 

 

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Sam

Well, it might be patentable, but could you make any money from it? If you sued someone for coming close to the ideas, would you win, and would you come out in front financially? Ah hev me doobts.

Cheers

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Patents – let’s put things in perspective here.

In the USA a patent cost most companies +$15,000 to process and then there are maintenance fees

Internationally, this number goes up to +$75,000

Most domestic patents take several years to process.  When patents are challenged, the success rate to overturn a patent has historically been about 50%

Most small companies would be better off not filing patents and focus on innovation to make a better product the customers desire.  My 2 cents.

[Sam Farrington]

Hi Roger and Jon,

Perhaps I was too cryptic. I have all the money I need, and am not interested in patents except with respect to finding ways to protect freedom to innovate.

Can’t imagine that someone like Henry Shires had many thousands to shell out early on for the patent that we have seen on BPL courtesy of a poster.  But a patent cannot be worth much unless it can be enforced, and that would probably dwarf the costs of filing, however great they may be.

A look at the practices of big pharma suggests that patents are of value only to the well endowed.They discourage innovation and are a major drawback to the benefits of free enterprise.  Even worse, they can be used as a club in extortion schemes that always seem to go unpunished.  Hence, the reference above to plutocracy.

As was earlier suggested on this thread by Roger and others, getting an innovation into the public domain early may be a way for innovators to protect against such clubs and stay in business.   A discussion with a patent attorney confirmed this, and if he was correct, the system can work in reverse for the not so well endowed.  Alas, despite that, it can be jungle out there, and “stuff happens.”

Maybe that is why many of us greatly appreciate and admire the “cottage” industries we read about on this site.

[Franco Darioli]

Sam,
I used this example before since we are familiar with.
The three guys at Trail Designs spent hundreds of hours coming up with the Caldera Cone.
Once done it is relatively simple to copy and not all that expensive to make.
If you had spent that sort of time and money doing the same thing, would you be happy , in the name of innovation, for someone else to sell the same thing ?

“A look at the practices of big pharma suggests that patents are of value only to the well endowed.They discourage innovation and are a major drawback to the benefits of free enterprise.”
Not a fan of pharma companies but I would argue that the opposite is true.
Why should a pharma company spend millions of dollars working out a chemical that can cure or alleviate a certain pain if it then it  can be copied by anyone and marketed as their own ?

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