Cold wet night, advice for next time

Also, the only time I have witnessed actual “sweat out the down” action was in the mid 40s, on a stupid-short trip when I took an experienced newbie (“I haven’t backpacked in three decades but I absolutely positively want to go on that 50 mile trip with you”) out with me. He used one of my quilts, brought with him a beastly heavy three layer jacket and slept with that on, with the quilt over him, and chanted that he was “freezing to death” for most of the night. Later he confessed that he went to a doctor and found out he had an infection (staph, I think) on his skin, and also he was a poorly maintained diabetic. But the down in my quilt was soaked down to clumps in two baffles.

I have at times over the years felt damp while dry inside the tent and it is my impression, unscientific and skewed to subjective as it is, that how I feel is not always true. There have been times that I felt tingling on my skin that I thought was silnylon misting – it proved to be untrue, just humidity increasing in a light shower and the inside of the tent was cold but not wet. Cold nylon can feel to me to be wet, and there may be a little moisture, but I’ve not observed significant degradation of loft in such conditions. I wonder at times if when I perceive cold if my body responds by upping the circulation. I have had sweaty skin above freezing despite it being 39-45F and not really all that warm, by our day to day civilized standards. Nor did I perceive that I was warm — until I sat up out of the quilt and got back in it.

If I were routinely out below 25F I would consider an overbag, but have not had too many issues as I am, with the quilts I have.

What kind of base layer were you wearing?

Here in the PNW the only time I felt damp is if:

1. I went to bed with clothes not entirely dry.
2. Wearing a synthetic base layer.

I can’t imagine that a down bag or quilt would be the culprit. Even on a rainy night with condensation inside your shelter your body heat should have kept your sleep system dry and warm from the inside out. Did you have a stressful sleep with stuff on your mind and simply sweated a lot?

What kind of base layer were you wearing?

Here in the PNW the only time I felt damp is if:

1. I went to bed with clothes not entirely dry.
2. Wearing a synthetic base layer.

I can’t imagine that a down bag or quilt would be the culprit. Even on a rainy night with condensation inside your shelter your body heat should have kept your sleep system dry and warm from the inside out. Did you have a stressful sleep with stuff on your mind and simply sweated a lot?

Alexander, I had to go back a reread everything, I thought i had mentioned what I was wearing but apparently i did not. I had on Cap 4 (thermal weight) hoody and bottoms on when I went to sleep. When i woke i put on everything else I had with me. I was dry when I went to sleep but I sure there was a little moisture in my clothing. I was not stressed but I am a “free sweater” I sweat a lot when exercising. Who knows if I had some sort of night sweats that caused it, but didn’t seem like my clothing was wet just a little  damp feeling.

“I had on Cap 4 (thermal weight) hoody and bottoms on when I went to sleep. When i woke i put on everything else I had with me. I was dry when I went to sleep but I sure there was a little moisture in my clothing. ”

I bet that some night sweats combined with synthetics did you in. I switched to Merino and though this adds some ounces, I ended up sleeping better (so much so I accept the extra 4 oz or whatever it was).

You could also consider trying silk.

Wow, sounds like I stumbled into a good solution to damp cold weather: two quilts. I camped in sleet conditions. My UL tent is very meshy which meant pretty much no barrier between me and the cold wet cloud I camped in. I always bring two quilts because I like to be toasty warm. In the morning the top quilt was soaked but the one underneath was fine and I had been warm all night. I was able to dry everything out later in the morning when I found a little blue hole of sunshine.

I think you might have done a couple things wrong. I spend part of my camping time under shoulder season conditions, ie between 20 and 40F. I usually hike/camp through the ADK’s in NY. I expect conditions as you describe.

What you describe is exactly the conditions I encountered on my first trip back when (maybe 40 years ago??) I had a warm day, about 60F to 70F, and it was cloudy. It wasn’t raining, but sure smelled like rain. I got to a camp site and set up my tent, made supper and while it finished cooking (cozy) I set up camp. No fire, I figured it had been warm that day. Nope, it got cold as hell. It snowed about 3-6”…wet sticky garbage type snow. It got down to 30F. I froze, even in my tent and even with two layers of clothing on … all I had. I learned a lot since then … some things from here and some things from the old Yahoo list of the same name.
1) I always use a tarp (unless my partner dictates otherwise.) Ventilation is always good, but can be improved with a few tricks. Always pitch it with at least 2-6” above ground (or grass) level all the way around. Pitch it at an angle with the front at least 2’ or more higher than the rear to help rid breathing moisture. Sleep with your head at the LOW end, to aid the air flow. Use a tree at the high end (seems like you did that.) You should set up at least three feet from the tree. The overhanging branches (usually before foliage) will help with radiative losses so the tarp itself will be warmer (less condensation.)
2) I carry two pads usually, unless it is high summer. When it is warm, it is for comfort under my main pad (Xlite regular,) when cold it goes on TOP of my inflatable. It will add about 5-10F degrees in overall warmth.
3) Using a small ancillary tarp in shoulder seasons, I set it up over a fire. This is a 5’x5’ silnylon metalized tarp. It weighs about 6.5oz, maybe 7oz with guylines. It is really important, since a fire will add a couple degrees to your tarp, forcing ventilation and keeping condensation to a minimum. This is sometimes set up as an over-tarp, but usually the front edge is *just* over the fire, and angled back with a couple sticks, allowing it to reflect heat back towards me. Even small fires can help a great deal with condensation, provided you can keep it burning for a couple hours at a time.

This is usually enough to keep condensation down and keep me dry and warm, even when clouds of fog roll in, on top of snow & sleet, or bullcrap weather. I drink a LOT of water, even though it is ice cold. This helps to wake me every couple hours to feed the fire and take a leak.

Note that I am not recommending this, just as a method that lets me push a 40F bag to the mid 20’s in lousy weather. Lately (the last couple years) I have been using a 20F quilt and have not had any cold nights.

BTW, I always carry a down jacket (12oz,) a set of long johns and knee length socks, and a head cover of some sort. 2 weeks ago I was out with similar gear at 24F. I was not cold unless I got out from under my quilt. My quilt remained dry even with heavy fogs/humidity from the snow banks in the immediate area.

You set your tarp up over a fire????!!!

Piper, yes. It keeps the rain from putting the fire out. In spring/fall it reflects heat back to me. And no, it does not burn. It is about 5-6′ from the flames, though you have to keep the fire smaller. I do the same camping in a lean-to, also. But I use my sleeping tarp set up between the LT and a longish stick (around 8-10′ or so.) It gets some smoke in the LT, but I stay low enough sitting on the Deacons Bench or sleeping on the floor that it doesn’t get me. In any case, it is MUCH warmer. Just keeping the tarp or lean-to a few degrees warmer than ambient means little to no condensation. But, it takes a lot of effort to round up/cut enough firewood for the night, usually six ~6″ logs, 12″-14″ long with some smaller stuff. I don’t usually bother, unless there is a high probability of cold/wet weather…spring and fall mostly. If the wood is wet, I stack it next to the fire, drying it. With an old rotted log, I set this over the fire to help reflect heat out, as well as protect it from rain/snow. Like I say, it is a lot of work and I don’t usually bother.

I like a fire at camp but its not allowed where i was in the SNP. Also i don’t know if i would make a fire anywhere near my DCF. $$$$$

Referring back to Jerry Adams post on page 1; Jack Stephenson, Warmlite and VBL’s etc.

Following Jerry’s link and re-reading Stephenson”s essay which seems to be a re-do and update of the initial essay on the subject by his dad the aero-space engineer, and is sorta rambling and a little wonkish; the gist of it seems to be that the primary moisture source is internal with around 4 lbs of moisture released from your body in a typical night, Based on all that Lester’s  advice looks pretty good.

Which would tend to “implicate” condensation of internal moisture on the external surface or outer layer of insulation, and working it’s way “in” over time.  Maybe it’s made worse by a really saturated atmosphere that doesn’t help by evaporating much if any of this condensing water vapor.

I agree a colder pad wouldn’t help at all and I guess that saturated air is also conducting heat (away from you)  much more effectively.

So how does the overbag work? I’d guess by moving the condensation point further from your core and primary insulation. At any rate this is an interesting topic. I’d recommend following Jerry’s link above and then going to the link on VBL and reading the essay but be prepared; you may find it a little tedious. Meantime I’ll check out what Skurka has to say on the subject

Here’s the link to Skurka’s artcle. He’s a much better writer. Maybe he took some classes with Reynolds Price.   https://andrewskurka.com/2011/vapor-barrier-liners-theory-application/

Read the question posed by Steve; the 7th in the comments section, and Skurka’s response. It is pretty close to the situation described in this thread.

I agree with several above. You said the weather was colder & wetter than you’ve camped before. A 20deg quilt struggles at 30F. Add that wind enters along edge of quilt when you move while sleeping. Your1/8″ pad is too little for the conditions. The Klymit pad invites cold wet air exchanges. Synthetics can flash cool under those conditions. I don’t think your misery was unusual; you needed more insulation for those conditions than you had. Adding one or two hot water bottle would have helped a lot.

Rob I would say that if a 20F quilt suffers at 30F then it wasn’t a 20F quilt to start with. That doesn’t help with the original question but it does mean you have to know the real world comfort limits of the gear you pack.

I just came back from a pre-snow trip where the temperatures were hovering around 0C / 32F and using a 20F Nunatak Arc-Lite. Tarp camping. Middle of the night I needed to put on my Patagonia DAS pants and a Uniqlo UL down parka. Humidity of 99% was what did it. On a Cot but using a S2S Comfort Plus mat and a 10mm CCF In my small double skin tent I would probably have been warm enough but the combination of  0C + high humidity and a breeze is a hard combination to tarp camp in

If you pack in a map that is coated you can throw it around your bag to keep condensation off it. It’s not a perfect scenario but if you have the map ANYWAY it will work..