Beryllium for pots, bowls, and cups

[Colin Krusor]

I like to experiment with new materials. Today I acquired some 99% pure beryllium metal tubes. They look like titanium:

The material is 1/3 the density of titanium, 60% of the density of aluminium, and far stiffer than both. It is used for satellite parts because it exceeds the weight benefits of carbon fiber and withstands high temperatures, gamma rays, etc. I picked up this batch of scrap pieces from a maker of $70,000 beryllium road and triathlon bikes. It is the only metal that can beat carbon fiber on a strength and stiffness to weight basis.

I plan to turn these into a bunch of pots, bowls, and cups. The machining will be tedious because of the extraordinary precautions that must be taken to avoid any contact with beryllium dust. The solid beryllium is as inert as glass and completely harmless, but fine beryllium dust (like fine glass dust) can harm the lungs.

Any ideas about how best to use this material are welcome.

[Anonymous]

You probably don’t have the capability, but a vacuum insulated thermos out of this stuff would be my dream thermos.

[James Marco]

Yeah, it can be very difficult to work with. If you have the tools, you can probably spin all sorts of stuff, but it will certainly be a challenge, slow with high pressure. As I remember it really conducts heat well and holds up to heat pretty well, let me look…

Hmm…not quite as well as iron from what I see though. It generally forms a crystalline structure, probably not all that great for spinning, it will likely crumble easily.  Pots, cups, etc. might be out because of this unless you have good, high pressure machinery. Welding/electro welding could work, but vapours and depositions would be real bad. Not sure this is safe even with masks/SBA gear, due to the flash deposits.

Stakes, D-rings, belt clips, would be less dangerous.

[Colin Krusor]

Yes, I read that it work hardens, is abrasive on tools, and after. I was thinking I might try heat-treating to relieve internal stresses and reduce the risk of cracking. Large grain size and microcracks can cause Be to be very brittle, but a long heat treatment can improve that.

The high thermal conductivity and very low density justify a little tinkering, I think.

[James Marco]

Check out Bob’s strip heaters for canisters. It would work excellently for that.

[Roger Caffin]

Just be aware that beryllium oxide, which forms easily, is extremely toxic. Whether you would want to use this stuff for food is highly questionable. me, I would not. I quote from Wikipedia:

Berylliosis, or chronic beryllium disease (CBD), is a chronic allergic-type lung response and chronic lung disease caused by exposure to beryllium and its compounds, a form of beryllium poisoning. As an occupational lung disease, it is most classically associated with aerospace manufacturing, beryllium mining or manufacturing of fluorescent light bulbs (which once contained beryllium compounds in their internal phosphor coating). The condition is incurable, but symptoms can be treated.

Worse, a single exposure is enough to create the disease.

Cheers

 

[Aubrey W. Bogard]

I’m with Roger, that stuff is extremely toxic.

[Colin Krusor]

There is a canon of mythology surrounding beryllium and I’m disappointed to see Roger and Aubrey perpetuating it. Roger, you even went so far as to cherrypick an alarmist excerpt from a Wikipedia article that is mostly opposed to your argument. I’m surprised to see that from you, Roger. That same Wikipedia article that you misconstrued says “Swallowing beryllium has not been reported to cause effects in humans because very little beryllium is absorbed from the stomach and intestines.” You didn’t include that excerpt in your post. That sentence comes originally from this CDC bulletin: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/PHS/PHS.asp?id=339&tid=33.

METALLIC BULK BERYLLIUM IS NOT A HAZARD. All studies showing beryllium toxicity pertain to lung injury from fine beryllium dust or systemic injury from organic compounds of beryllium, like beryllium carbonate. The EPA calls it a Probable Human Carcinogen because the dust causes lung cancer. Does that toxicological fingerprint remind you of anything? How about titanium? Fine titanium and titanium dioxide dust is a major inhalation hazard that can cause life-threatening disease and some organic compounds of titanium are highly toxic.

About beryllium, the CDC says “Animal studies have not found significant associations between ingestion of beryllium in the diet and drinking water and increased incidence of neoplasms in rats, mice, or dogs. It should be noted that no toxic effects were observed in rat and mouse chronic-duration studies tested at low doses, and the duration of the dog study was too short to be predictive of late-term cancer. The EPA concluded that the human carcinogenic potential of ingested beryllium cannot be determined.”

The National Poisons Information Service in the UK says “Gastrointestinal beryllium absorption is poor and systemic toxicity via this route does not occur.”

The Scottish Environment Protection Agency says “Ingestion of beryllium has not been reported to cause harmful effects in humans.”

The excellent toxicology reference text Hazardous Materials: Emergency Action Data (by Foden and Weddell) says: “There is no record of illness from ingestion of beryllium.”

The Report of the Ad Hoc Committee on Beryllium, National Materials Advisory Board, Division of Engineering, National Research Council says: “No harmful clinical effects have been reported from ingestion of beryllium-containing materials.”

The Handbook of Industrial Toxicology and Hazardous Materials (Cheremisinoff) says: “There is no record of illness from ingestion of beryllium.”

The World Health Organization’s Concise International Chemical Assessment Document 32 says: ” Ingested beryllium is poorly absorbed (<1%) from the gastrointestinal tract…unabsorbed beryllium is eliminated via the faeces shortly after exposure…”

I’m going to stop there because I’m getting bored. Bulk beryllium metal is not hazardous. Like titanium, it is strong, hard, and inert, and it would be very difficult to ingest any by using a beryllium pot. Even if you managed to scrape some of the metal away with a hardened steel file and ate it, it would pass right through you.

 

 

[Aubrey W. Bogard]

Colin,

Apologies for disappointing…  Granted my information is more limited than yours.  As long as you are going in eyes-wide-open, I’m comfortable for at least having indicated to you that there are risks, lest someone else here get an urge to experiment without reading the last sentence of your original post.

[Anonymous]

Colin, i probably shouldn’t have assumed as much as i did earlier.  Do you have the tools, equipment, and know how to make a vacuum insulated thermos bottle out of this material and would the material even lend itself to such an application?

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Colin

Yes, I am well aware that metallic Beryllium is not believed to be hazardous, but I was not talking about the metal.

We are talking about cups and pots which may be used on a stove, where there is the potential for oxidation. And items containing beryllium oxide come with large safety warnings. So – it is better to be fore-warned.

Cheers

[Dale Wambaugh]

+1 on toxicity issues with beryllium. I had a family member who was an aircraft machinist who died of it.

 

See the wiki at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium_poisoning , which notes “According to the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), beryllium and beryllium compounds are Category 1 carcinogens; they are carcinogenic to both animals and humans”. Not the sort of thing to be using for food in general and especially cooking over flame where all sorts of reactions can be created.

[Dean F.]

Granted, bragging about your beryllium pot would be massively cool but I’ll agree with Roger.  Sticking beryllium in a fire then eating off of it, or even breathing near it, does not sound very well-advised to me.  I could be wrong- I’m too lazy to research, because all of the other stuff about beryllium is scary enough to me to not even chance it.  That I (a non-toxicologist) recognize the term “berylliosis” is enough of a red flag for me.

Especially since, really, unless you have access to some incredibly specialized metal-forming equipment you aren’t going to get the beryllium very thin, so any weight savings over highly-proven and wafer-thin titanium will be purely psychological.

[Ryan Smith]

“We are talking about cups and pots which may be used on a stove, where there is the potential for oxidation. And items containing beryllium oxide come with large safety warnings. So – it is better to be fore-warned.”

At what temperature does beryllium oxide form?

Ryan

[David Thomas]

I’m enough of a Star Trek fan that I really liked the spoof on the original series, “Galaxy Quest”.  So when I hear Colin propose to make something out of beryllium, I immediately think, “beryllium sphere”.

[DancingBear]

Would beryllium react with acidic foods and drink (tomato-based products, coffee, citrus drinks, etc.)?  If so, what compounds would it form?  I’m no chemist, so I can’t answer, but it seems like it would be a good idea to investigate that before putting any work into making pots and bowls with it.

[Jordo _99]

Beryllium is definitely an exciting material and seems like the lightest available material (until graphene or similar bleeding edge tech materials become more widely available).

However, I’m finding an alarming lack of information that indicates it is safe for this application…the only application that relates to this is dental use (alloys for crowns, bridges…etc) and the safety of those have been brought into question as well.

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/beryllium/ — http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1403951

 

Personally, I think it’s best just to do a theoretical comparison between the materials (ie, a Ti 650ml pot weights X and a Be 650ml pot would weigh Y…safety concerns aside, how do those compare) and use Beryllium for applications that are less risky, such as trekking poles, stakes, tent poles, backpack inserts, orthodics…etc

I’d absolutely be open to purchasing Be gear (if it were affordable) but I have serious concerns for applications that interact with food/drink.

 

Best of luck Colin, I’m not trying to discourage you…just trying to make sure that you’re being safe.

[Dale Wambaugh]

Beryllium is unsafe to work with and you will contaminate your work space with the dust, exposing others to the risk as well.

I watched a good man die slowly from the stuff. Keep in mind that workplace regs are continually changing. My father worked with asbestos, carbon tetrachloride and PCB’s; I worked with selenium, lead and benzene and the regulations have changed dramatically for all of those toxins.

The effects of beryllium may not show up until years later, like asbestos

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/beryllium/

[Colin Krusor]

Alright. I concede that the small weight savings that might be possible by using beryllium for food-contact applications doesn’t justify the risk. A lot of credible sources state that beryllium should be safe for food contact, but other sources disagree. My reading of the literature suggests to me that beryllium should be safe in this application. There is a sensational and alarmist mythology about the dangers of solid beryllium parts, but given the severity of the potential adverse effects (no matter how unlikely), I’ll grant that my original plan was unwise.

 

 

[Dale Wambaugh]

I’m worried about anyone working with the stuff and exposed to fine particles and welding fumes.

With all the good products available at reasonable cost, why play with fire?

[Stefan Hoffman]

That is awesome! Stuff like this makes me excited for the future of gear. Beryllium BOTs, Lithium Alloy trekking poles, Monocrystalline Silicon potty trowels haha.
I think it would be pretty hilarious to make a $300 spoon. You could wear it like a necklace so you get to explain it’s significance to EVERYBODY. :)
You are a lucky guy, pretty much anything you make will be the first of its kind.
+1 on the vacuum canister idea.
Other ideas: The body of a knife (blade with carbide welded on one side?), A headlamp/flashlight casing, a cinch buckle belt, a flask, solar panel structural backing, tripod, crampons, ice ax, an IPhone case (please don’t lol), backpack hardware bits, A POTATO GUN!!!…..

IDK what you are capable of but i look forward to seeing what you come up with.

[Cayenne Redmonk]

By changing into dedicated clothes that never leave the shop and showering before changing back into street clothes its possible to avoid contaminating cars and homes.

Vacuums and HEPA filters can reduce dust and fume exposure.

Automated equipment can further isolate the user from exposure.

With the modern safety controls in place less than 10% of beryllium workers have issues.

[Stefan Hoffman]

How much do you think just that much of the raw material is worth? If you don’t mind me asking.

[Colin Krusor]

I happen to be acquainted with a maker of ridiculously expensive (USD $50,000+) road and triathlon bicycles, and he has a warehouse full of beryllium tubes of all sizes from suppliers in Massachusetts and Ukraine. As a maker of bicycles, he doesn’t have a use for 4″ diameter tubes that come in the large lots he receives.

The ridicule in this thread should be directed at the absurdly wealthy clients who create a market for salvaged (probably Soviet) and gray-market beryllium tubes by buying beryllium bicycles for six-figure prices. The tubes I have are crumbs that fell from their tables. The late Robin Williams, for example, had a collection of road bicycles that included custom specimens valued over $1 million. A friend of mine was his bike mechanic, and often spent afternoons at his estate in Tiburon, tweaking electronic brakes on 3kg bikes.

I don’t fetishize exotic materials, I don’t dream of monocrystalline silicon potty trowels, I didn’t buy this stuff at market prices, I didn’t steal it, and I didn’t embark on a quest to obtain it.

Who here can boast that they would not have considered MYOG applications if the stuff was handed to them?

 

 

 

[Stefan Hoffman]

I’m confused. I hope you don’t think i was trying to make fun of you. I fully fetishize exotic materials and i don’t see whats wrong with that. I wear my little titanium knife as a necklace so why not a beryllium spoon :). If somebody handed me some beryllium tubes, well i definitely make a couple little things. It’s softer than titanium so it should be pretty easy to carve some little stuff out like hardware bits and knife/saw handles. I would be all about the geek factor, plus it might actually be lighter.
If i, myself, had to work with the stuff, I would make one of those little airtight boxes where you just put your hands inside in long gloves and work on it that way. But i have no real metal skills, i would just be playing around with a dremel and a pair of pliers. I would have a blast doing it though.

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