Begging for State of the Market Rain Jacket Report

[Mark Verber]

jscott wrote

thinner fabrics radiating more cold through them, it is astounding how much difference the thickness of a waterproof breathable fabric makes to comfort. This is why 2.5 layers are so bad IMHO – 3l all the way for me.

Hmm… maybe that’s why I liked eVENT DVL and Shakedry.  My constant battle is not overheating. In moderate weather I used  to forgo rain gear  other than a hat to keep rain off my glasses and wear low water absorption clothing.

I have been loving shakedry shells. Over the last 6 (or maybe it’s 7)  years I have gotten through 5 shells :(… but only paid for .9 :).  The first three were Arcteryx Norvan SL which has a problem with the zipper leaking. The first 2 replaced by ArcTeryx, the 3rd sold on eBay – I disclosed my opinion of the zipper and arcteryx response – and replaced it with a  GoreWear R7 from Sierra trading post (actually made money). The R7 zipper failed catasophically after 2 years, and they replaced it free of charge.  After 2 years pinpoints holes in the shoulders but never noticed leaks when in the field. Used on trail with packs that didn’t have abrasive fabric.

You can pry shakedry out of my cold dead finger when it comes to trail running and cycling.  [I have purchased 3 additional jackets which I have cached.  Thankfully the yen was weak for two of them, and got a sitka which is my favorite on close out for $99].

This year I am going to try using  a poncho one last time for backpacking.  I love the idea of rain gear which is less than $100 and could last the rest of. my lifetime before it needs to be replaced.

Getting back to the very first post.  It would be wonderful to have a good state are the market that includes a brief summary of what we now know about WPB fabric performance, quantitative data about current shells + field experience.

Also just want to say thank you for the informative contributes of several people on this thread… especially those who are sharing years of field experience and time working in the industry. This is why I like backpackinglight compared to many of the other online communities.

[Bill Budney]

Try a front-zippered poncho, Mark. Once tried, I could never go back.

 

Getting back to the very first post. It would be wonderful to have a good state [of] the market [report] that includes a brief summary of what we now know about WPB fabric performance, quantitative data about current shells + field experience.

Agreed that it would be nice, but I think you are asking for this entire thread rather than a single post, because the field experience part requires many different kinds of experiences from many people. Nobody has tried it all; not even Philip Werner.

I tried to summarize the thread a few days ago, and listed the front-zippered ponchos that I am aware of. Stephen Seeber’s rain gear (see Table 2) and windshirt charts are the best sources of recent numerical data. Plus his Columbia Outdry Extreme Mesh report.

The only other thing I can add, in the not-a-rain-jacket category, is that I love the Outdoor Research Ferrosi Hoodie soft shell. People ignore it because it weighs close to a pound, but it outperforms all (tested) current windshirts in breathability, and slows penetration of light rain, allowing body heat to reject moisture faster than the (light) rain. I wear it as my top layer in nearly all weather below about 50F/10C. I only add the poncho when it rains hard, or maybe a puffy below 0F/-20C. (In Summer I sometimes carry a windshirt; not because it is better, but because it packs tiny when I don’t expect to wear it).

 

[Scott Emmens]

Hmm… maybe that’s why I liked eVENT DVL and Shakedry.  My constant battle is not overheating. In moderate weather I used  to forgo rain gear  other than a hat to keep rain off my glasses and wear low water absorption clothing.

Mark V, I don’t think the fabric thickness contributes to the feeling of overheating, that is due to the breathability, or lack thereof. I don’t believe the fabrics are thick enough to provide any insulation to the wearer BUT do make a difference the the surface temperature of the fabric, which in turn can lead to earlier condensation. I am no scientist, these are simple my observations and thoughts after spending too much time thinking and try different fabrics.

[Scott Emmens]

The only other thing I can add, in the not-a-rain-jacket category, is that I love the Outdoor Research Ferrosi Hoodie soft shell. People ignore it because it weighs close to a pound, but it outperforms all (tested) current windshirts in breathability, and slows penetration of light rain, allowing body heat to reject moisture faster than the (light) rain. I wear it as my top layer in nearly all weather below about 50F/10C. I only add the poncho when it rains hard, or maybe a puffy below 0F/-20C. (In Summer I sometimes carry a windshirt; not because it is better, but because it packs tiny when I don’t expect to wear it).

Bill, did you suggest SS try the Ferossi? He passed on that he had tested the Ferossi and was finding it great. I bought one on the back of that, managed to pick up a sample from the NZ Supplier, and so far I’ve been impressed, but boy it’s heavy! I haven’t had the opportunity to test it in the wet yet.

I think if there was a SOTM report done about waterproof breathable garments it, would need to include an educational piece on what to wear under said WPB, and my BIGGEST bugbare, how to care for/launder WPB garments.

[Bill Budney]

Um… I’m under informal NDA. I expect he will write about it when he is ready.

“What to wear under a WPB” has been discussed several times. Polyester for performance; wool if you like it. Brynje, Finetrack, PowerDry/Capilene are the usual recommendations. I suspect that any breathable/wicking polyester will do (if wicking is even a thing).

What is your favorite?

(PS: Ferrosi is only heavy when you pack it. I usually wear mine.) ;)

[Stephen Seeber]

Regarding informal NDA: Bill was kind enough to send me his Ferrosi for testing.  I was sufficiently impressed that I bought one. The measurements for Ferossi are included in my next article, which I am informed will be published during the 1st week of May. But preliminarily, Ferossi has the highest MVTR of any fabric I have tested so far.  Heavy, IMHO crappy hood fit but excellent breathability and minimal air permeability.  I use it primarily for skinning, which makes me sweat more than anything else I do. By the way, like Mark Verber, I have also stocked up on Shakedry .  One with pinholes (which does not seem to leak but I use it in the winter), one that I have been using for a year, and one still in the Montbell bag for which pit zips are not yet installed.

[Scott Emmens]

Hi Bill, noted re informal NDA!

I have devoured as many “what to wear under WPB’s” as possible, but it’s alway good to hear other’s actual thoughts.

I am now a fan of Finetrack, again down to SS’s findings. I do wear Merino for comfort and thanks to it’s lack of odour BUT not under WPB’s. In our business we sell bi-compenent Merino/Polyester and Merino/Nylon fabrics. We do not believe that 100% Merino is a suitable technical fabric for active use due to it’s slower dry times, fragility and it doesn’t hold colour that well (brights fade). Whenever we discuss WPB “failures” with customers our first question is always what were you wearing unger it? Invariably it is “Icebreaker”, we Kiwi’s are a loyal lot and many still believe that Icebreaker is a great NZ company that is in essence made OF New Zealand, even though it’s not made here, or even NZ owned any longer, but I digress….

Currently I am testing/trying Finetrack with various synthetic garments over top, it blows me away how dry my skin feels wearing it. And of course Polartec Alpha!

Good point about the weight of the Ferossi! I am really enjoying mine too, I was concerned about the lycra content but haven’t noticed it really.

I wish I had access to Shakedry garments but they’ve completely dried up it seems! I think I may have just found a Sitka Vapour SD but it’s pretty pricey when paying with the New Zealand Peso!!

[Mark Verber]

Stephen… are you going to include the BD Alpine Start as a reference point when you post about the Ferrosi?  Can you get a sneak peek into how they compare?  The Alpine Start has been my favorite shell when not facing real rain (fine for on a off sprinkles or snow).

[Bill Budney]

I am not Stephen, but I have both. Alpine Start is good, and maybe slightly more rain resistant. If I had nothing else then I would be happy with it; the fabric is really nice. It is half the weight and pack size compared to the Ferrosi, so better in the pack (when I’m NOT wearing it).

Ferrosi is terrific when I wear it. Noticeably more breathable; better in both warmer and colder conditions. I got a large size, in the tradition of Roger Caffin. Blousy is better. Plus the Ferrosi has four more pockets than the Alpine Start. All mesh-lined for extra ventilation.

[Mark Verber]

Thanks for the quick answer and your experience Bill.  While I like the lab tests, hearing people experience is really valuable. The Alpine Start Jacket is working amazing well for me and has a perfect fit for me (trim not blousy because I also use it cycling and don’t like fabric flapping). I am not going to rush out and try the Ferrosi, but it’s good to know when my Alpine Start wears out, that I should give the Ferrosi a try rather than just replacing the Alpine Start with another.

Also thanks for your summary.  Based on this thread I almost picked up a a front zipper SaphiRose poncho for my “lets try a poncho one more time”… but when I was in Japan ran into the Trailbum Gnu Rain Cape and was seduced by the low weight, and what seems to be a perfect size/fit for when I am carrying a small pack (this year doing mostly hut-to-hut, hostel-to-hostel with a 23l pack).

[Bill Budney]

Looks nice; long tail. Is it really 115 grams? That’s like a Frogg Toggs Emergency Poncho; not even their Ultralight.

You could always get a full-length zipper installed if you decide to check that out.

Gatewood Cape seems like a legitimate alternative. 11 ounces seems reasonable until you pull out your 4-oz poncho. :)

[Mark Verber]

my cape is 104g + 6g if I bring the stuff sack.  Your right, it has a decent length tail for a smaller bag.  I believe there is now one with an even larger tail which was made for when packs were >40l

Its light as an emergency poncho, more compact than the Frogg Togg poncho or one of the cheap plastic ponchos after you have used it once (they never pack as small as when new/unused) but way more durable.

Several years ago I tried the gatewood cape.  I really wanted to like it.  Unfortunately it was a bit smaller than I wanted as a shelter, and bigger than I wanted as rain gear. Even though it didn’t check my boxes, I think it’s a great design and has great performance/price for many people.

[Dustin V]

The Gatewood Cape is a good shelter that is awkward as rain gear. It will keep you and your stuff dry, but you have to work to keep from snagging it, keep it ventilated, or keeping it from blowing around –stuff you don’t have to do with a jacket. I bring a separate jacket along that falls between rain and wind resistance because of the scenario where I may need to go out into the rain for short trips while it’s set up as a shelter. That negates some of the combo unit weight savings, but I’m willing to work with the trade-offs to pay for the versatility.

IMHO, one the only extra benefits of a poncho or cape is that you can protect your pack a little better, including the back panel and shoulder straps. Wearing a soggy pack for hours is really unpleasant to me, but maybe that’s not a big deal to the OP. I’m kind of giving up on rain jackets and have been scouting for a light cycling cape because they’re relatively short, conical and often have thumb-loops and draw-cords around the bottom.

[Luke Schmidt]

I have been thinking about a totally waterproof non-breathable rain jacket for some situations.
I do have an anciet raincoat that probably has no DWR left. How would it work to coat that with thinned down silicon (same way we do to tarps). Would it bond? I’d prefer the experiment be as cheap as possible.

[Glen L]

Luke, try covering a small patch of the material and see if it sticks.

 

We were using silnylon ponchos as our rainwear back as far as 2001. Integral Designs made them as well as lightweight tarps which we procured as well. We did a backpacking trip where it rained every single day in 2001. Those ponchos also were made with loops to make a shelter but we never used them for that. Even though they were loose they felt clammy and we eventually moved on to other rain gear. It has to really start precipitating before we put on any rain gear though. Last winter during both light rain and snow we just hiked on and our nylon shirts and pants dried quickly when the precip stopped.

 

As for me, I work up a sweat with two layers of silk weight Calpine during -8°C/17°F with no shell on a solid snow layered ground. That is some super breathable stuff. I don’t expect any waterproof fabric to be magic.

 

My ancient eVent jacket is so breathable that the wind blows right through it and it needs no pit zips. It never was perfect though, didn’t make a good windbreaker and after two solid hours of hard rain on a cold day there was considerable condensation anyway.

[Bill Budney]

Luke: Siliconizing your old rain coat may work; depends on the material. Try sticking a little bit of silicone caulk to it in an unobtrusive spot to see whether it sticks. The caulk is inexpensive and a little goes a long way. I think 8:1 mineral spirits to caulk is a common ratio, IIRC.

 

Mark, Dustin: Thanks for the feedback on Gatewood Cape. I’ll keep looking for alternatives. The Packa appears well-thought-out; I’m just not sure that I want the arms. I like the open arms of a poncho. I almost wish that I could have “rain arms” as a separate garment.

When I searched Amazon for rain capes, I found more front-zippered ponchos. Draw cords are attractive, although easy enough to add. I wouldn’t use thumb loops for hiking, although they are required for cycling. I cannot recommend a front zipper highly enough, but maybe that’s just me.

Glen: Good point about minimizing use of rain gear.

[John S.]

Dustin, somebody needs to bring back the Integral Designs Silcoat Cape.

https://backpackinglight.com/gear-swaps/integral-designs-silcoat-cape-poncho-pack-cover-size-large-5-oz-2/

[bradmacmt]

I got my first Goretex rain jacket in 1978. Before that it was coated rain wear, which was usually just a poncho. For wind I used a 60/40 parka, or Ventile parka, or a Supplex-like nylon anorak. Goretex of every version has changed for the better, but surprisingly not by much.

In my gear closet I have a Sierra Designs Elite Cagoule that went out of production in 2016. I also have the chaps. I think the cagoule is a brilliant design and I’m glad I’ve got it. Weigh’s 6.4 oz’s for the size M.

I think the overall market is fairly brainwashed (perhaps a bit too harsh a word) in favor of waterproof-breathable material that mfg’s, apart from cottage industries, don’t bother to design for fully waterproof material. The SD cagoule was a stab at it, and the market responded, which is why it’s no longer offered.

[David D]

Picked up this kilt to use with the Safi Rose.  Will double as a tent porch

https://www.3fultralight.com/product/3f-ul-skirt-rain-pants-ultralight-waterproof-rain-gear-65g/

Unless the Safi Rose wets out from a sneeze, looks like a nice light[enough]weight waterproof breathable inexpensive combo.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Luke

anciet raincoat that probably has no DWR left. How would it work to coat that with thinned down silicon
In general silicone sealant will not adhere to fluorocarbon DWR (and vice-versa). In compatible surface chemistry.
Mind you, if the old DWR has really all gone – who knows?

Cheers

[David D]

Quick update on the SaphiRose.  Did a 4 day trip last week with 5 hours hiking in steady rain.  The poncho wouldn’t stay closed on the sides with the pack opening it up, and the sides and front of my shirt were soaked. On the plus side, it kept me warm and I didn’t feel stuffy at all (my back was fairly dry), but the search continues.  This works well for Bill, and I suspect the difference is our pack sizes.

[Bill Budney]

The important question is whether you like the front zipper.

There is nothing remarkable about the SaphiRose poncho other than the zipper. If you like it, then I am hopeful that someone could sew a zipper onto any poncho you prefer. I’m currently waiting for rain to test my front-opening Frogg Toggs poncho experiment.

If you don’t care about the zipper, then there are plenty of alternatives.

(Roger mentioned preferred threads recently, so I ordered some from RSBTR. Now to figure out how to load up the sewing machine. One step closer…)

[David D]

Front zipper open lets rain in while it’s raining, it’s benefit was during intermittent rain when it could be opened without having to take off.  No different than a jacket in that regards, but of course wasn’t stuffy like a jacket.  Poncho+ front sip is a winning combo if the sides are sealed.  Hence the packa

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