Backpacking Stove Efficiency, Part 1: Pot Diameter, Burner Size, Flame Level

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Here is a video by GearSkeptic discussing canister topped stove fuel efficiency with respect to pot size and flame level.  It is pretty detailed and a long video but the material is excellent.  I think that it syncs up well with Ryan’s podcast on Flame Power and Fuel Efficency.  Lower flame level = better fuel efficiency.  My 2 cents.

 

[Bill in Roswell]

Thanks for posting this Jon!

[Rex Sanders]

Big surprise for me: a small diameter pot with no lid is more weight efficient.

Always thought lids were essential. “I like small pots and I cannot lie” even though I laid awake at night worrying they were terribly inefficient.

Testing with wind could be very enlightening.

Excellent video, thanks Jon.

— Rex

What’s wrong with being that guy in the back?

[Mark Verber]

thanks for posting. no lid was a surprise, though I do wonder how wind and real field conditions would effect the results.

low and slow does with fuel efficiency has been my experience but some of us are just too impatience.

The most fuel efficient alcohol stove I used was the Ion stove designed by Sgt Rock.  It  took >14 minutes to get 16 (or maybe it was 20oz) of water to 200F. After a couple of years I switch to the much speedier and easier to use Caldera Cone which was a bit heavier and slightly less fuel efficient.

[Marcus]

Gear Skeptic is top quality content. His series on water filtration is essential watching.

Although the lid doesnt help much with heating efficiency, I glued 1/8″ foam to custom cut turkey-foil pan and it insulates coffee in my 300ml and 900ml very well. In lieu of this video, I may reduce my pot size since it serves no purpose i see.

Ryan or Matt, invite gear skeptic to contribute to bpl if you havent already. He seems proper caliber for one of your contributors.

Also interested how this all changes in his wind tests. Jon’s have shown the Windmaster to be the ultimate wind stove. I expect that to hold, but am interested how fast the fall off occurs.

[Mole J]

I think the lid effectiveness tests need to be done outside in a bunch of different real world conditions.

Windless, summer temperatures would be similar to the indoor test conditions, but, add a bit of a breeze and cooler weather, and I’m thinking the lid effectiveness may be more positive?

[Jerry Adams]

i don’t like watching internet videos because it’s hard to skim and just get the most important points like when reading text, but my curiosity is wetted

I’m skeptical that a lid isn’t fuel efficient.  I will now have to watch the video.

 

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

He has an index in the description section so you can fast forward to what you want to see.  additionally, you can view the transcript to search for the keywords that you are interested as the times are synced on the transcript.

[LARRY W]

Wind blowing across the near full lidless pot would have a cooling effect, no? Also introduces the potential for contaminates in your pot.

[Jerry Adams]

That is a great video.  I like how his main focus is fuel/weight efficiency, he estimates error margin, does “posthoc” analysis to try to figure things out, good summary.  Good videography.  I’m now going to have to watch more of his videos.  Better than watching repeats of “Air Disasters”.

I can see how maybe a lid isn’t that effective.  The water evaporates from the water surface about the same with or without a lid.  With a lid, the air between water and lid is quite a bit warmer so there is less evaporation, but not that much as shown in his data.

Yeah, I’m curious what would happen in the field with a lid at different wind levels.  Also, the same thing for wind screens.

Since the field is not in a controlled environment, that is, the wind is constantly varying, you would have to repeat the measurement several times.  You wouldn’t want to repeat 54 times for every stove and stove combination.

I like his conclusion that fuel efficiency is small compared to weight of stove/pot.  It’s really only meaningful if it means you won’t run out of fuel.  If it saved you from going from a 4 ounce canister to 8 ounce canister, or taking two canisters, then you’d save some meaningful weight.

 

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Higher efficiency with the lid off?  Just spitballing here.  Say a stove is 50% efficient, then half the heat is wasted warming up the environment.  In dead calm conditions, it could be that the rising air around the mug rather hot.  Hot enough that it is warmer than the air above the water with a lid on.  I guess I’ll have to run a test to measure the air above the mug: lid on / lid off.  Again, just spitballing.

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Ingore the previous post, my bad.

[Rex Sanders]

Jerry,

I watch most YouTube videos at 1.5 to 2 “playback speed” (under gear icon), because impatient. Some narrators talk much faster, adjust accordingly. 1.5 worked well for this video.

Easy to rewind a bit (left arrow) if I miss something important, or back up and slow down a section by adjusting speed again. Also easy to jump forward (right arrow), or drag-to-scrub forward while watching thumbnail for a change in topic. Rare to see useful chapter markers like this video.

Works for me on Mac and iPhone Safari, never use YT app. Drives someone close to me nuts if I’m not using headphones.

— Rex

I don’t spend too much time on YouTube. Oh wait – another cat video! Bye 😀

[Jerry Adams]

oh no Rex, you’re going to get me watching more youtube videos.  Good ideas.

[DAN-Y]

 

[Jerry Adams]

so, there’s a little weight savings with a lid on, especially if you run the stove slow (which also saves fuel)

but, he said that the savings in weight is cancelled out by the weight of the lid.  The only lid that would be less is a DIY lid made out of heavy aluminum foil.

I am now working my way through the 4 part water treatment videos

[DAN-Y]

Ditch the lids. Don’t boil, just pasteurize.

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Well, just filter your water first and don’t worry about it.  My 2 cents.

[David D]

Used to brew beer so was curious about the pasteurization time.  At the recommended 200F, basically zero

[DAN-Y]

Ditch the filter, pasturise, go crazy light.

[Eric Blanche]

This is very good info! I wish he would recreate the tests with a standard esbit tab for those odd people, like myself.. Im part of the wide pot/lid is better. I think with wind being a factor the lid situation could result in different results.

 

Looking forward to his next video with wind results!

[Jerry Adams]

“Used to brew beer so was curious about the pasteurization time.  At the recommended 200F, basically zero”

If you bring your water to 161 F, it takes 15 seconds to kill off any parasites.  And it takes a while to reach that temperature and cool back down even after you turn stove off so that you will accumulate 15 seconds by the time you realize you’re at 161 F and use it.

on that video he shows a device called a Lapi that has some wax that melts at that temperature which you can visually see so you can reliably get 161 F.

Better than that, in one of his videos he describes how you can just eyeball it by looking at the bubbles being formed.  Or, do it yourself one time with a probe thermometer – see what the bubbles look like as the temperature increases. It’s pretty easy to figure it out.  But there is opportunity for user error.

[Russ W]

So I have a Ruta Locura carbon lid that shaved 3 grams of weight from the insanely heavy weight of the original Toaks titanium lid. And, to pack my fears, I don’t want bears spitting in my food.

I’m pro-lid!

Also…don’t tell my backpacking buddy the lid doesn’t matter…. I’ve been schooling him at every turn, and would appreciate confirmation of my confirmation bias!

[Roger Caffin]

Hot weather and high humidity: the lid is not quite so critical. I still use one.
Cold weather, dry weather, even sub-zero in the snow: huge steam loss possible. Lid will prevent that.

Check for yourself: heat a pot of water in the snow with the lid on, then take the lid off and watch the huge cloud of steam billowing up. That steam is taking energy from the pot.

Cheers

[DAN-Y]

Ditch the lids. Don’t boil, just pasteurize.

Changed my mind….don’t ditch the lids :-)))))

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