Ask a Ranger Anything.

[Stephen Everson]

Good idea on swapping out the breakfast that requires cooking. Our crew has one layover camp (Beaubien) so it will be nice to not have to get up in the monring and pack.  We too in 2013, got up and were on the trail in 30-45 minutes.  Ate breakfast on the trail after an hour of hiking.  Goal was to get to next camp and enjoy the activities.  Always good advice on the forum.

[David Y]

Stephen,

If you can’t find suitable substitutes in the Swap Boxes for a cooked breakfast, you could cook one for lunch when you get into your next camp early because you got up and out early. Like we do for dinners for Dry Camps.

There is so much to do at Philmont it is a shame to spend your experience sleeping in late.

“Philmont should be enjoyed, not endured.” Moonshine

[James A]

“There is so much to do at Philmont it is a shame to spend your experience sleeping in late.” Another great quote from David that I can share with our Crew!

On another topic, what do you use for your “personal smellables”? I have just used ziploc bags to this point. I was thinking about getting a small stuff sack or roll-top dry bag (not sure it needs to be waterproof or not) to store all of my smellables (spare batteries, repair kit w/duct tape, personal FAK, and personal toiletries including sunscreen, toothpaste/brush, etc.) in one spot. I am thinking every Crew member should have a stuff sack with all their smellables so we can easily sort/distribute this stuff when packing up camp.

Appreciate hearing what everybody plans to do with the personal smellables.

Oh, and are USB power packs considered the same as AAA alkaline batteries, or are they not smellables?

[David Y]

Philmont recommends every camper have a personal ditty bag to consolidate all their smellables so they can be quickly and completely removed from their pack to be bear bagged anytime left unattended.

Guidebook to Adventure, page 21,
“Ditty Bags 2 – 3 Put all personal smellables in one to raise in bear bag.”

page 44,
“It would be useful for each member of the crew to have their own ditty bag with their personal smellables in it to put in the bear bag.”

I don’t feel your personal smellables ditty bag needs to be waterproof as most items are either not effected by being wet or are in plastic bags. Just a nylon or sil-nylon stuff sack about 2 or 3 liters.

Everyone’s ditty bag needs to be identifiable from everyone else’s, different color, size, name on it or something so each morning campers can easily retrieve theirs from the pile or find it in the middle of the night.

“Philmont should be enjoyed, not endured.” Moonshine

[Bruce Tolley]

@ james

+ 1 to what David says above.

One caveat. The Scouts need a dedicated stuff sack and NOT use their sleeping bag stuff sack which then transfers scents onto their sleeping bag. If they wanted the stuff sack to be waterproof, they could just line the stuff sack with a gallon zip lock bag.  With my crews, I also addressed the need to break the habit snacking in your tent at night on the practice hikes and other backpacking in the season leading up to Philmont.

Before I joined the troop we had some adults who were handing out candy bars to the Scouts during snow camping overnights. My worst nightmare was that a bear would come at 400am looking for the source of  Nestle Crunch bar aroma when we were camped in bear country.

[David Y]

Bruce,

Did those other adults only handout candy bars to troublesome Scouts they didn’t like? 😉

2019 Guidebook to Adventure

Page 14
“If you choose to provide your own tent it must be… free of all food smells. If you think your tent may have been compromised by food smells, please use a Philmont tent.”

Page 33
“Bearmuda Triangle”
“This method concentrates all activities that might have a smell within a triangle…Tents are set up outside the triangle…

This all means no food is allowed in tents at Philmont.

“Philmont should be enjoyed, not endured.” Moonshine

[Bruce Tolley]

David,

Yes Guide to Adventure lays down excellent policy.

I am just pointing out 1) that being bear aware needs to start during the training hikes and 2) that my Scouts at least were tempted to take directions literally:” i need a stuff sack at night for the oops bag, I have my sleeping bag stuff sack that I am not using at night, I shall use my sleeping bag stuff sack for the oops bag.”

Our Troop did some backpacks in the Sierra Nevada, and I always pointed out to the drivers that they should ban snacking in the cars, especially the eating of cheeseburgers, on the 4 plus hour drive up because otherwise they were inviting bears to extend their foraging at the trailhead parking lot into the inside of their cars.

 

[Bruce Tolley]

David,

Yes the Guide to Adventure lays down excellent policy.

I am just pointing out 1) that being bear aware needs to start during the training hikes and 2) that my Scouts at least were tempted to take directions literally:” i need a stuff sack at night for the oops bag, I have my sleeping bag stuff sack that I am not using at night, I shall use my sleeping bag stuff sack for the oops bag.”

Our Troop did some backpacks in the Sierra Nevada, and I always pointed out to the drivers that they should ban snacking in the cars, especially the eating of cheeseburgers, on the 4 plus hour drive up because otherwise they were inviting bears to extend their foraging at the trailhead parking lot into the inside of their cars.

 

[David Y]

Bruce,

I wasn’t being critical of your comments, just reinforcing your positions with quotes from the Guidebook.

As you say, we need to start practicing bear safety techniques on our training hikes to instill appropriate habits.

And, if everyone already has all their smellables in a ditty bag there is no need to use anything else.

We practice using personal smellables ditty bags and bear bagging nightly on all our backpacking trips because we are always in raccoon, skunk, opossum, ground squirrel and other varmints country. So, when our crews go to Philmont, bear safety practices are automatic.

“Philmont should be enjoyed, not endured.” Moonshine

[Bruce Tolley]

David,

Did not think it was criticism.

Cheers

Bruce

[James A]

Any idea if Rangers will object to using Teva sandals as “camp shoes”? I already have a pair and this is what I normally use for stream crossings and to air out my feet in camp when I know the conditions will be wet.

I also thought about buying some Crocs, but they don’t seem like they’d be good at all trying to ford a creek.

I’ll be wearing hiking shoes/trail runners, so it seems silly to carry an extra pair of tennis shoes. That would make more sense if I was hiking in big old-fashioned leather boots.

Definitely not looking to spend a lot of money on a onetime use item. Any other ideas?

[Tim P]

Do you use a fleece at Philmont? I think it will be cool enough, but a fleece seems bulky and heavy.  What other types of jackets do you use?

Tim

[David Y]

Guidebook to Adventure, page 19

“Sandals (Teva) are not recommended but can be used in campsites only.”

They won’t do for “rock climbing, biking…” but you can wear your “hiking shoes/trail runners” for those actives.

So, I would say you can get by with Tevas in campsites only.

I’ve use Crocs (with the holes) as my “closed toe shoes for use around camp” as they let my feet dry and stretch out without danger of foot injury. They are inexpensive, very lightweight and I can’t feel rocks or sticks when walking. I’ve have used them for walking and standing in rivers without losing them while fly fishing.

“Philmont should be enjoyed, not endured.” Moonshine

[Stephen Everson]

Question on refunds.  I have an adult leader who a medical condition now that he is unable to go.  It is severe enough that on the advice of the doctors, his son is not attending.  I can understand that if your father were to pass away while you were out on the trail, that would not be a good thing. Going through the effort to get the son off the trail and home during the trek would not what I would want as a mother.

The guidebook is very clear on no refunds.  Is there ever any refunds with this type of situation?  At least for the father.  I can understand the scout is able to go and not getting a refund, but maybe for the father?

Due to this illness, I am stepping in as one of the adults so the crew has three adults.  I know the minimum is two and the recommended is three.  I had originally planned on dropping the crews off at philmont and my wife and I exploring the southwest.  But hate the idea on the crews missing out if one of the adult on the trek gets hurt.

Thanks in advance for everyone replies.

[David Y]

We have not had such an issue and not heard of anyone getting a refund except for medical issues. Since the son does not have the medical issue it may be difficult.

We normally take full crews of 12 but since we have to bid so far in advance and don’t know who will be going we only register and pay for 7 then pay the balance at check-in. So, if someone must bail no money is lost.

[Jeffrey Peters]

Stephen Everson we had a scout blow out his knee the last day of school and our trip started at the end of July.  He was able to get a refund from Philmont.  In the case of a injury to an adviser  on the trail that drops below the 2 deep leadership requirement Philmont will back fill with rangers. In fact I saw one crew that had both advisers go down on the trail and back filled with two rangers.

[Jay L]

Do you use a fleece at Philmont? I think it will be cool enough, but a fleece seems bulky and heavy.  What other types of jackets do you use?

Tim

On one trek I used a light weight (200wt ?) fleece.  Trek was 724 and we went from Rayado to Baldy then Ponil.  Wore it every morning and evening, also on top of Baldy.  I had long johns as my sleep cloths but the fleece was enough that I never needed to wear both while I was up and moving.

Next trek I used a Borah Gear down pull over.  Trek was 705 and almost the exact same itinerary.  Again, wore it most every morning and evening, and on top of Baldy.  This was similar in warmth to the fleece but much lighter and much less bulky.

 

 

[David Y]

I’ve been carrying a The North Face full-zip 100 weight fleece jacket on my last 6 or so treks, all in July. We have spent 3 nights on Mt Phillips and several in Copper Park. That fleece and my Marmot Precip rain parka was all I ever needed over my hiking T and shorts. Sometimes I put on my rain pants if I sitting around.

“Philmont should be enjoyed, not endured.” Moonshine

[James A]

At a council training last week we were told to leave behind the pot lid, as it’s too heavy. I was wondering if anybody has experimented with boiling 3-4 quarts of water with a lid vs. no lid. I know there are lots of variables, but just wondering if the lid is a good idea to take or not.

Also, are Scouts allowed to tie something to the bear rope for extra weight before trying to toss it over the cable? They told us they have seen carabiners stuck on the cables when people tried to use them for extra throwing weight. Just looking for some thoughts on that.

[David Y]

You’ve got to love Council Philmont Training!  How many times has the trainer been?

If he was talking about the old obsolete BSA Patrol Cook Set heavy aluminum pot lid / skillet with a detachable handle that Philmont issues, it is too heavy for a pot lid.

But boil time and fuel consumption are greatly reduced by using pot lids and windscreens. Don’t fail to take advantage of such savings. Fuel and time are limited at Philmont. We don’t go there to cook.

We started using popcorn can lids and added a plastic knob in the centers rather than their heavy skillet.

Now we use Chinook 41040 Stainless Steel pots & lids (a set for each crew). We only use and carry the 6-quart and 2.5-quart pots and lids. They very adequate for a crew of 12. You can get them on Amazon.

“Philmont should be enjoyed, not endured.” Moonshine

[Tim P]

Do you have any more information on “popcorn can lids”?

[David Y]

You know, the popcorn the BSA sells for fund raisers. There are also other brands in stores. Ours was a pretty good fit. Then I went to True Value Hardware and found some kitchen grade plastic knobs, drilled holes in the centers and installed the knobs. They may only last a few seasons before they start rusting or get too bent up.

Or maybe you could find some pot lids at Goodwill. As long as they fit within the pot’s bail and doesn’t fall into the pot.

This ain’t rocket surgery or brain science. Just use your imagination and stay within Philmont’s guidelines.

“Philmont should be enjoyed, not endured.” Moonshine

[Jeffrey Peters]

As of 2017 the standard issue pot is the  AceCamp Tribal pot.  The lid is not heavy.  The new AceCamp pot and lid are very flimsy when you compare it to the old style Open Country pot and lid.  I would take the lid. A light weight option would be to use aluminum foil for a lid or make one out of a foil turkey roasting  pan.

Philmont does not want you attaching any weight to the bear rope for the toss over the cable.  None of the bear cables are out of range for a reasonably fit scout.   It does provide some  entertainment watching the bear bagging show.

[James A]

Thanks, Jeffrey.

Yes, we had fun watching the Scouts try to throw the rope baseball style over the cable. Didn’t work too well. I showed them how to “rainbow” it over the cable by standing nearly under the cable and flinging it up. Later they got the rope over themselves, but said they used a stick.

Sounds good on the pot. I figured we’d want a lid.

 

[David Y]

If the throw is a little short and goes just over the bear cable the inertia of the weighted end of a carabiner, rock, whatever will cause the weighted end to wrap around and around the bear cable becoming fouled and irretrievable, many years of experience has proven this.

Stand a few feet back from the bear cable on the uphill side. With a little practice doing it as your Ranger demonstrates (rainbow throw) most of your Scouts will master this.

“Philmont should be enjoyed, not endured.” Moonshine

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