Are frameless packs worth it? MLD Cuben Prophet vs. other options

[Yoyo]

I keep eyeing a Cuben Prophet from MLD (14.5 oz) convincing myself I need to try a frameless pack.  My HMG Southwest is twice the weight at 30 oz.  I know that about 10 years ago, frameless was the way to go.  But is there a reason to go with a frameless these days?

My circa 2014 Arc Blast weighs around 17 oz, now it’s at 21 oz.  Is there anything else out there with a frame that weighs around 1 lb?

My personal favorite for a frame are the two aluminum stays that come with my HMG Southwest Pack.  Should I consider a Zimmerbuilt?  Just brainstorming here.

[Ben C]

I really like a frameless pack.  I have a prophet, a zero, an SMD Swift, and an old frameless Zpacks Blast.  I just like how a frameless carries and sits close to my back  I pack with a thin foam pad on the back panel, which provides some stiffness when needed at higher loads.  I want the thin foam for my sleep system anyway.  I really feel no benefit to adding a frame at normal loads.  You can lose a pound off the HMG.  I can’t do that any other way.

Most people will tell you that you need a frame but that has not been my experience.

KS Ultralight also has some nice looking packs that can be framed or frameless.  I have no experience with them though.

[James holden]

find a well fitting pack where you can remove the stays … problem solved =P

frameless packs are VERY dependent on how much weight you carry and how you load and distribute that weight inside

the old BPL articles are on frame/pad stiffness and collapse are the best if you have access to em

;)

[Miner]

I haven’t used a framed pack since 2009.  Current packs are a MLD Burn and the larger ULA CDT.  The Burn is for short trips and the CDT for thru-hikes and when I need to carry a bear can.

Once you figure out how to pack them (you want as little open space inside as you can to make it rigid), they can be comforable.  I regulary carry a bear can in my CDT pack without issues; in fact the bear can tends to make the pack even more rigid. I also use a GG torso pad which provides 3 layers of 3/4″ foam pad to provide support and is easier to lock a rigid packing methodology in place compared to an inflatable pad which has more give under pressure. I don’t see how people make that work for total weighs over 20lbs. With foam, I regularly have total weight of mid 20’s without issue and on rare occasions will hit 30 without suffering too much.

I mainly use them due my gear being pretty small and their lighter weight.  Why do I continue to use one instead of going to say a cuben fiber Zpack’s Arc for a minor weight savings?  I use a lot of cuben fiber gear, but I don’t want it on my pack due to durability issues.  I just hiked the 400 mile Condor Trail in central California last year.  As it involved a lot of bushwhacking my several year old CDT pack wore a few holes in the side pockets and my clothes got pretty fuzzy. This despite the fact that I’ve found ULA’s dyneema fabric pretty durable over the years. I shudder at the thought of how well a cuben fiber pack would have held up.

[Matthew / BPL]

I’m a relative noob with frameless packs (I think I got my first one ~1.5 years ago) but for me the argument for a frameless pack is not about saving weight. I prefer a frameless pack (often without a hipbelt) for a total pack weight under 18-20# because it’s much more comfortable. Above that weight I will reach for my framed pack and the extra weight of the framesheet/robust hipbelt/stays will be more than offset by the load carrying capacity.

[Lester Moore]

A modest sized frameless pack for short light trips and day hiking is still a good complement to a full sized framed pack for longer trips, heavier loads or when carrying a bear canister. But if you already have a sturdy framed LW pack (HMG Southwest), then maybe the Cuben Profit is too similar?

Unless you need the 40L volume, then you could look at the MLD Burn or Core, the GG Murmur, Zimmerbuilt Quick Step or KS30 or KS3. As for 1 pound with a frame, the KS30 with frame set option would come in just a few ounces heavier. It all depends on what volume you need, what weight the pack will carry, usage (backpacking, day pack, summit pack, or a mix) and what pack design elements are important to you (materials, side pockets, cost, etc.).

For reference, I’m also looking for a smaller frameless pack to supplement a LW framed pack (GG Gorilla in my case). Right now the MLD Core in Dyneema with shoulder pouches and hip belt pockets is on the top of the list. Other than the Core’s attractive price, the Core seems like it would complement the Gorilla better than a Burn or a Murmur would. For near SUL loads, the Core should work by taking off the pouches and pockets. The Core also seems like an ideal day pack or sturdy summit pack, so long as I can get used to carrying water in shoulder strap pouches rather than in side pockets.

[Matthew S]

Is there anything else out there with a frame that weighs around 1 lb?

Funny you should ask. See the first 3 minutes of my video.

[David Danylewich]

I have an MLD Exodus, which I love. I use a Thermarest Neo-Air Xlight as a back pad and inflate it a fair bit to provide rigidity. I’ve done five and six day trips like this and it works well at around 10 pounds base weight plus ten to fifteen pounds food and fuel at the start. I find it conforms really well to the back and is very comfortable. Where it has not worked so well is with a bear canister (Garcia I think? 3 pounds? Rented in Sequoia) – this pushed the weight up too high on the first couple days and I got a blister/pressure sore on one of my clavicles under the shoulder strap. By day 3 it was okay again as food weight went down. So for six days with a canister, I’d think twice. Otherwise they rock!

[Brad Rogers]

I used frameless packs for quite a few years, and I would still recommend them if you can sleep with a closed cell foam pad.  The advent of the Neo Air killed the frameless packs as they brought the weight of inflatables down into Ridgerest territory.  I switched to a Neo Air and light framed pack in 2013 and now only rarely use frameless packs anymore.

[DGoggins]

I know lots of people like frameless packs…but I really don’t like them due to the amount of sweat  on my back with them. There is no breathing room in it. I get much less sweat with my arc haul or exos 58.

[James Marco]

Are frameless packs worth it? Well, a good question. Rather that just saying my preferences, I would look at the conditions you are expecting.
1) They do not carry heavy loads well. 30# is about it. So, if you want to go out for two week unsupported, you are good. If you want to go out for three weeks unsupported, you pay the piper for the first 4-5 days. If you are on a thru hike, it doesn’t matter. Most Thru hikes are rigged to have a resupply every week or so…worst case is two weeks, so you are still good.This assumes you won’t be traveling with a bear canister, extra clothing, and know how to stay dry in wet conditions (at least at night.)
2) The are about 6-32oz lighter. Depending on which pack, a frame adds a lot of weight. For many people, 6oz can mean the difference between a 12oz pack and “I’ll look elsewhere” pack.
3) They usually require several years of experience before you can use a frameless pack. Loading long loads vertically helps a lot. Examples: Rolling a tarp up into a 22″ long bundle, multi-using an internal frame made out of a blue CCF pad 10″x20″ against your back, using a 21″ saw as a frame against your back. Just a few things that time & experience are invaluable to figuring out how to pack a frameless pack to support your load. As was mentioned, Cinching a pack tight, both up&down and left&right, tight enough to carry easily, but not too hard against your back.
4) Where and when you will be hiking is important, too. Climbing up&down mountains all day, days on end, you will want light weight. Hiking over a generally level trail, the difference between 20 and 30 pounds is not that bad, but, it’s a real killer in mountainous terrain. Hiking in winter may mean an extra 10-15 pounds of cloths. A couple extra pounds in shelter. A pound in extra fuel. Let alone skis/snowshoes, skins, etc. Not the ideal for a 30L pack. Larger sized packs usually weigh more than smaller packs. SUL packs that weigh 6oz@1200ci(20L) are not the same as 48oz 4900ci (80L) pack.
5) In wet jungles, you might want a frameless dry-bag used for canoeing. In desert conditions hauling 4 gallons of water, you WANT a framed pack. Necessity will drive what you need to bring to meet the conditions you expect to encounter. If you by a pack too large, you will be uncomfortable. If you buy one too small, you may not even be able to go. Both styles of packs are fine in their place. Choose what you NEED, not what others tell you, unless they live next door to you.

[James holden]

Two things to watch out for with frameless packs in addition to fit

 

• “barelling” …. Some frameless backs will become a tube/barrel when loaded …. With contact along the spine but not the rest of the pack …. This strains yr shoulders more  and throws off the balance
• shoulder straps … Since all the weight is on the shoulders the straps need to be comfortable enough to handle the weight … Thin narrow shoulder straps will generally not handle 20-30 lbs well over days

a frameless pack should feel like an extention of yr body …. You shouldnt even feel like you are wearing it with moderate (10-20 lb) loads

the best way to find out if it fits properly is to climb with it …. You can get away with alot when hiking … But try climbing with that frameless pack and itll tell you very quickly if it fits and if it hinders yr mobility

;)

 

 

 

[William Chilton]

Take the carbon fibre stays out of your Arc Blast and you’ll have a frameless pack.

[Aaron]

I was a frameless skeptic, but I have to say after picking up an MLD Burn, I’ve been incredibly happy with the fit of the pack for loads up to the 20ish lb range. Anything above that, I take a pack with an internal frame.

The frameless pack is quite nice and requires a bit of packing discipline, which I feel helps me to avoid bringing extras “just in case” that can add up weight and bulk-wise.

[John Rowan]

I’ve really been enjoying my Burn as well on shorter loaded walks (I’ve had more cause to walk around with a pack full of gear than I have to go on actual hikes….long boring story). I actually got mine with the LW suspension mod (which I think they just stopped doing) and the Prophet belt, because I have a bad back and wanted something that was both light AND supportive. After all that, turns out that my favorite way of carrying it is with the belt undone.

With a decent level of attention to packing volume (for a tight fit) and a cut-off third of a GG nightlight in there, it definitely gives enough support for what I need and the loads I normally carry.

 

[Ethan A.]

+1 Eric “frameless packs are VERY dependent on how much weight you carry and how you load and distribute that weight inside”

-I don’t find frameless packs comfortable above 18-20lbs max, maybe a little more if I can carefully pack everything into a very rigid vertical bundle inside a rolled CCF pad.

-I don’t like weight on my shoulders and much prefer nearly all the weight on my hips most of the time – if that’s you, you might want to stick with framed packs.

-I don’t like the sensation of barreling. It can drive you crazy over hours. Even if you pack carefully, you are more likely to experience barreling especially with awkward loads.

-I like the ease of use of a good framed pack – I don’t have to spend as much time carefully packing it to create a support structure.

-I know several experienced long-time BPLers who enthusiastically jumped into frameless packs to save weight, only to sell them a few months later because they really missed the back support, versatility (for light and heavier loads) and ease of use. Some others have tried to show me how comfortable their frameless packs are while I watch them visibly suffer carrying them.

-Since hikes are also fitness opportunities, I don’t worry about trimming a little weight from my pack for day hikes. I do have a frameless Osprey Talon 22, which has a thin foam back pad, which I use for hiking, mountain biking and cycling. I don’t typically carry heavy loads in it.

-The one exception for me is trail running/adventure race packs you wear close to your back vest-style and typically wear without a hipbelt for trail running and short fastpacks. I’ve never carried heavy loads in such a pack.

I’d say get a pack with removable stays you can use both ways, or get a frameless pack to play with. You should be able to find one used at a good price on Gear Swap or other platforms.

[Ben C]

When I read a post like Ethan’s, and I have read a lot of them, I think there must just be a lot of variance between how our bodies work with a frameless pack.  I can be very comfortable at 26 pounds in a frameless.  I don’t find packing them hard.  I guess I pay attention to it but once you find a good packing system, it’s just routine.  I keep a 1/8 inch foam pad the I fold to fit against my back.  It’s useful in camp and under my inflatable as well.  I have never been bothered by barrelling if it actually happens on my pack.  I have been fine in a frameless for 10 days with a bear can.

I’m not disputing that other people have these problems.  I’m just saying that there seems to be vastly different experiences with frameless packs.  You probably won’t know if it’s great for you or terrible for you until you try it out.

[Ethan A.]

+1 Ben. I’m only sharing my experience and that of a few others I’ve observed. I don’t like weight on my shoulders. Other folks swear by their frameless packs up to certain loads. I know by now after experimenting I prefer a lightweight framed pack, with the exception of a trail running pack worn high up like a vest in which I’m not carrying much weight.

A used pack in your size is an easy way to try. Even a new pack from a good maker like MLD will hold its value quite well if you decide it’s not for you.

[Ben C]

Ethan, I hear from a lot of people with your experience.  It seems to be the majority of people here.  I think it’s good for people to know it really works well for some and really works poorly for others.

I think some people don’t really believe that frameless packs are comfortable for some people.  My pack always brings a smile to my face.

[Miner]

My first trip with a frameless pack had my shoulders screaming in pain after a few hours. After a couple more trips and several experiments packing it differently, my shoulders stopped bothering me.
It isn’t because the shoulders got stronger as I often sit around for winter and start the spring in poor shape. First trip out with 5 days of food and 3L of water? No problem hiking most of the day without shoulder discomfort. Those minimalist waist belts on many frameless packs do carry some of the load. The times I’ve tried not using it, my shoulders did suffer.

[James holden]

Actually habituation does play a role with frameless packs … The old BPL articles talked about it

basically you should train yrself to carry frameless packs by progressively increasing the load over time

A frameless pack should hug yr body and fit perfectly without any addtional straps

through the hipbelt and sternum straps do provide some retention and the hip belt does have some transfer if u stiffen the back … If it doesnt feel good without em the pack simply doesnt fit you well

you should easily be able do any excercise (climbing, aerobics, yoga, etc) with 10-20 lbs of a well fitting frameless pack

;)

 

[Miner]

So you are saying that carrying a frameless pack with a bear can that weighs 25 pounds should carry comfortably without using the hipbelt at all? My first reaction to that is your nuts or enjoy discomfort. My second reaction is why would I want to? :O

For me coming from a desk job, carrying that much weight wihtout the hipbelt means sore shoulders after 2 hours that require a 20 minute break to recover from before going another 2 hours. After doing so one trip after I irritated a Kidney going over a steep cross country pass and had the hip belt unbuckled as a result for the next 3 days so I could return to my car, I think I’ll keep using the hip belt, thank you, which allows me to carry the same weight all day without shoulder discomfort.

Carrying only 10-15 pounds, not really needed, but still helps on a 13+ hr day. Thoughmy post about hipbelts was clearly not talking such easy loads. Though only carrying 10 pounds, I don’t see how a pack couldn’t fit you without a hipbelt unless you packed it with something poking you in the back. In which case, don’t do it. :P

[James holden]

as i said in my first post … frameless packs are VERY sensitive to how you pack em …

if you need to carry some weight in a frameless pack then one should use a foam pad as a stiffiner … or some packs also have a rigid plastic sheet

while a hipbelt might help with SOME load transfer, its no where as much as a framed pack … if you cant carry ~20 lbs fairly comfortably without the hipbelt then the pack fit, especially the shoulder straps, simply arent that good …

climbers carry 20+ lbs all the time in their frameless packs …, climbing gear weights a decent amount alone

if you NEED to use a hipbelt, then you really need a framed pack for proper load transfer

on a frameles pack that fits properly yr shoulders may get sore over long periods especially as you habituate to it … but should never be in pain

;)

[Iago Vazquez]

I would like to point out that different packs provide  different experiences. My first large capacity frameless was a previous generation GG  Virga. With 20-23# I ended up with sore shoulders and back pain on a few occasions despite the fact that the pack seemed to fit me well. Even at 18# I was not enjoying it. I decided frameless wasn’t for me. I also purchased one of the last Golite Jam based on the great reviews, which I view as essentially frameless, but I could never get it to fit me well, so I never really used it. My wife could not get a good fit in it either (we have the same torso length).

 

Eventually I acquired a second frameless pack. Just got back from traveling through China with it routinely carrying 20-23#, and I was never sore. I loved it. Curiously, the GG straps were very cushy, while this second pack’s were light moderate, similar to the Jam’s in width but with less foam. So my take away is that if your weight is in the 20# range, you may need to try multiple packs until you find one that works for you. But isn’t that true of almost everything?

[Michael M]

Interestingly I actually find my KS50 more comfortable without the stays installed, perhaps I’m not adjusting it correctly or I did not get the right size but I can carry 20ish lbs in it quite comfortably without the stays installed. With the stays in the pack has a tendency to pull away from my back, with them removed the top of the pack hugs my upper back nicely and relieves pressure on my upper shoulders. Go figure.

[Author]

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