April in Utah – gear list feedback welcome

[Terry G]

Hey all,  I finally got around to weighing all of my gear and putting it into lighterpack.  i would love some feedback and how I may be able to trim some weight for an upcoming trip.  We are heading out for 6 days in Utah at the beginning of April. if possible, I’d love to trim about a pound but maybe that isn’t possible without spending a bunch of money.

https://lighterpack.com/r/dog6sd

 

 

[Arthur]

Where in Utah?  Why bear canister?  Bug net?

[Terry G]

Good catch with the bug net.  i will leave that at home.

We are going through a section of Needles (Salt Creek) where bear cans are required.

[Greg Mihalik]

The Ursack Major AllWhite is IGBC approved, weighs 9 ounces, and is much more pack friendly than a canister.

[nunatak]

Re Ursack, the Needles District seems to only allow hard sided containers:

https://www.nps.gov/cany/learn/news/news03142014.htm

and:

https://www.nps.gov/cany/planyourvisit/backcountryregulations.htm

Personally I’d be too warm in a quilt that is rated at 22° and actually is comfortable at 22° (like the Katabatic).

[Greg Mihalik]

From the 2017 Canyonlands Superintendent’s  Compendium :

“In the Needles district, food and beverages, food and beverage containers, garbage, and all other scented items must be stored in an approved IGBC bear resistant container (BRC)  —”

https://www.nps.gov/cany/learn/management/compendium.htm

http://igbconline.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/180302_Certified_Products_List.pdf

https://www.ursack.com/product/ursack-major-s29-3-allwhite/

 

[Terry G]

I’d love to leave the bear can at home and use the ursack but I spoke with the backcountry ranger who was clear that they only allow hard sided containers.

I am cursed with being a cold sleeper. I may be able to use a beanie instead of the balaclava.

 

[Greg Mihalik]

“This document lists the special designations, closures, permit requirements, public use limits, and other restrictions made at the superintendent’s discretion. The compendium is updated annually and augments what is contained in the Code of Federal Regulations and other applicable federal statutes and regulations.”

The Compendium is the “law” which a ranger does  not understand.  Not an uncommon situation.

 

[Katherine .]

• Are you sure about the 2.7 oz weight on the give-and-gos? my pair of women’s M is 1 oz.
• How much do you care about the Kindle? Can you fall asleep without it?
• Other electronics seem like a lot. Why two things labeled “battery”?

Is this a solo trip? Are you cooking w/someone else? I ask because:

• That’s a large pot for one person
• Why the bowl ? (you have a cup and a pot)
• Seems like a lot of fuel — the large and small canister weight. I only use canisters on trips w/a kid, but a full 220 lasted us for a 4 night trip.

Ah, I see you say “we.” Quick fix: the other people take the some of the shared kitchen gear!

From the info you give in your consumable fuel calculation I’ve concluded there are 3.66 of you going on this trip! Unless they are small or much less fit, at least give one of them the little fuel canister.

[Katherine .]

nm

[Terry G]

Thanks @katherine.

Your math is right.  There are 4 of us and we will certainly share the fuel and other items which will reduce the weight a bit. Hell, I am carrying the tent so maybe I can share the whole cook kit.   We are planning a couple of no-cook meals, so I think we will get by with the fuel budgeted.

The kindle is a lux item that I thought was pretty light until I weighed it and put it on the list.  Seeing it there at more than 11 ounces means it is going to have to work hard to keep its place in the pack. That one may have to go.

 

[Erica R]

I did Salt Creek 2 years ago  in April, Excellent hike. I took a Ursack with a home-made piece of aluminum sheeting inside it to meet the hard-sided requirement. The bear concern is mostly for the fall when the cactus fruits are ripe.

We were able to thru-hike it because we had 2 cars for a shuttle. Highly recommend going out over the slick rock to the national park campground if you can manage a shuttle and get the permits for the Salt/Horse at-large zone.

Fording the river on the way up to Cathedralin a 2wd almost stopped us. You do need high clearance for that.

You can do without the wagbag. I agree that 1.57 lbs is a lot of electronics. I carried 0.

I figure 1 oz per person per day of isobutane. Most everything on your list sounds good, but I can’t understand how I managed about 20 lbs start pack weight (didn’t include clothing or trekking poles)  which included all the food. Oh, I see your base weight is 15.4 lbs. We did the thru-hike quite slowly in 4 nights/5 days. I figure 1 lb/night of food because I mainly take freeze-dried (therefore the rather high  fuel consumption).

Water is plentiful; you don’t need to carry much at all.

The nights were definitely chilly, with some snow in the air in late/mid April. Didn’t freeze. The snow did stick up on Cathedral Ridge. The trail down Cathedral ridge is not good. When you get into the National Park the trail gets excellent.

[obx hiker]

OK I’m going into Salt Creek in April for the 5th time and was doing some googling and hoping to get some answers to the question re: the bear can as addressed by Greg and Erica. That question really has me a little concerned since I’ve also noticed the contradiction in the actual stated Needles policy regarding food storage. Copied from the website: “a hard-sided, bear-resistant container”  and : “Containers must be approved by the Interagency Grizzly Bear Committee”

This combo of regulatory mumbo jumbo performs the neat trick of ; taken exactly as written, ruling out BOTH  my S29.3 Ursack with or without the aluminum insert AND my Bearicade. Dadgum! No wonder the growing frustration with government regulation even as we ironically observe that regulations are intended after all, basically; to protect us from each other or maybe protect the bears from us. Where’s Pogo when you need him?

I understand Greg’s point but from experience I’m pretty sure citing that distinction is not likely to work. What’s a boy to do? Purchase a THIRD form of food storage necessary (evidently) only in the Needles?

While I’m pitching a minor hissy fit (throw in a little southern lingo to spice things up Y’all.) I might as well agree with some of the previous observations, and maybe ever so slightly question one…. re: Terry’s pack weight/Gear list.

As others have mentioned there are a few categories where the gear listed is apparently or possibly; to some degree, shared. Maybe you’re sharing the duplex but you can’t very well split that up. The cooking gear must be , to some degree “group” gear as well as the water & filtration gear. Katherine pointed out the food, and it looks like the fuel is also a shared item; so spread around some of that as you are able and your crew is capable.  But it looks like about 3+ lbs might rightly be shared items so arguable subject to adjustment/sharing; and that’s not counting the food.

To get my “gram weenie” mojo going….. here’s a few other things.

• Stakes: Do you really need ’em? there’s sticks and limbs and rocks to pound em down everywhere. Stuff is also nice and dry and hard and holds better. Or get some small net produce bags and Lawson string to attach the bags to the tie outs, and put a rock in the bags. You can custom tension each tie-out! The bags and string weigh next to nothing and pack up like the size of a deck of cards. Edited to add: this will lift the sides of your duplex a little higher since the angle changes at the tie-out. SO better ventilation right?
• Punch holes in the bottom corner of the sawyers squeeze bags and add some of that string and maybe a cordlock and hang your squeeze at the right height to drain into your 1 liter bag with a short (er…much shorter) stretch of light tubing. There’s shrubs and stuff to hang it from near all the water. Lotsa willows. You can “stake” out the tent while the water is filtering. Also ditch the hydration rig, put the liter in a side pocket, maybe with a flip top, and pull it out and drink when you’re thirsty. One less thing to fiddle with. But I’m bringing my squeeze on my planned trip instead of a bfree. The campsites are near the good dependable clear water sites and the water is OK but not alpine mt. clear.
• The bearvault is obviously a “biggie” but we’ll have to guess about that I guess.  I don’t cook where I keep my food or sleep where I cook or eat either where I cook or sleep and sometimes I can’t even find my way back to the tent…..  And I don’t wipe my hands on my pants etc. etc. and I double nylofume bag my food with whatever storage I’m using. I just don’t want to mess around with bears and they have an incredible sense of smell so keep the smellables as far away as reasonable…… though I’ve never seen bears or sign in Salt Creek but evidently it does occur and if they’re traveling the drainage which they will be (unless they’re hiking with Mike Kelsey) they’ll go more or less right by your campsite.
• The Wag doesn’t appear to be required but considering the situation it’s hard to argue tooo much. Still there are umpteen miles of side canyons with side canyons of their own and so forth.  Also lots of nice flat, thin rocks that make a dandy spade. Might require a little more planning but hey…. It’s not like it’s not gonna happen. OTOH there are the occasional cow pies that I guess must date from the fifties? Back when somebody might actually be spending some time in Kirk’s cabin so it makes you think about what you’re leaving and where you’re leaving it. BTW there was a great article in Nat Geo, I think from the 50’s about when the park was being created and dedicated and they were finding stuff like fairly intact sandals in that big ruin near the Big Pocket. I think there may have even been some of the ladders around. Wow!
• Ever seen those driducks ponchos? or any other disposable poncho?  That weighs about an ounce? It’s hard to imagine a weather system that would require a real rain shell, and too early for summer boomers. I plan to check the forecast and will likely bring something in the 1 ounce range as a just in case what th’ heck backup unless I get a really convincing forecast.
• Not to chime in on the electronics bt. As far as light goes I love those little photon freedom micro lights. Weigh @ 6 grams. Based on my use which isn’t that sparing (they’re great for reading in bed) they’d have to last at least a month; and you can bring 2! one in stealth green for any zero dark 30 missions that come up; like a long trip up that side canyon. Hey there’s so many stars you can practically read by starlight and if the moon is up you can see colors! That’s the only electronics I’d bring; well except you must bring some kind of camera! I used to bring a gps to mark some level 4 type rock art sites ( If I tell you I’d have to kill you ;) but you cannot get lost!
• And lastly speaking of weather. I’ve seen it hit the mid-upper 20’s in mid-late April in upper Salt Creek. It’s not like that quilt is heavy and who wants to be cold?  OTOH  now that Nunatak is right there in Moab they certainly know the turf. They also certainly make a really nice quilt!  It probably /possibly will be warm enough for something in the 35/40 range but I’d rather be off on the warm side with that call.

Anyway being too lazy to do the math that seems like( depending on the ursack) another 1 to 3 lbs.

Hope you have a great trip! It’s a neat canyon. Be sure and make the side trip to Angel’s arch and go all the way up and under it! Also be cool with the ruins and rock art. Stuff is delicate so be careful. There’s also some cowboy signature sites which is getting to be another fun thing to explore! I’ll look for your name in the All-American Man register!

[David Thomas]

From someone’s blog about a Salt Creek trip Memorial Day weekend, 2011:

“It sounded like someone talking in their sleep at first but then I heard the word ‘bear’. My eyes popped wide open and my body froze. I listened for more. Seconds later I hear Cody start screaming at the top of his lungs, “GETAWAY BEAR! YAA!! GETAWAY BEAR!! YAA!!!”. Naturally I started doing the same thing. Now it’s Cody and I screaming at a bear in the middle of the night. “

[Alex H]

Re: the conflicting bear regulations.  Big Bend NP is the same, only hard sided containers even though they say IGBC approved but when asked they will say the Ursack does not qualify because it is not hard sided.  Fortunately in Big Bend, at least right now, you only have to carry a canister if you plan to leave your food unattended.

[David Thomas]

I’d lose the 2.0 ounce Leatherman Squirt P4 and its pliers for a 0.7 ounce Victorinox Classic with its scissors.  I use scissors a LOT more than pliers: trimming tape, bandaids, opening food packaging, trimming finger and toenails.

Since the mini-Bic is fundamental to cooking your meals, I’d tuck an extra one in your repair kit or have a companion carry one.

Rather than a “ditty bag with wallet, ID, money”, I cut some Tyvek, fold it, and make a seam with package sealing tape (although you can also store duct tape, Tenacious Tape or Leukotape there instead).  I make it the size of a credit-card open on the short end, but a bit deeper.  Credit cards, DL fit exactly, and currency can be folded to fit in.  Sometimes, I’ve left a flap with a tail on it, which then doubles over and laces through two slits I cut in the mini-wallet.

[obx hiker]

Good catch Dave. I saw that leatherman as well but then forgot to mention it. Agree the ONLY thing I’ve ever actually used was a small pair of travel sewing kit scissors.

I wonder sometimes what posters expect when they ask questions about their gear lists. Are they asking route specific questions? Which I tried to answer…. and based on general 4-corners experience as well as specific Salt Creek experience; or do they really want to review the process of lightening up?

You have to be pretty much relentless on the lightening up process, while knowing where to draw the line at personal safety.

The more I do it the more I think the biggest thing you need to leave at home and out of the pack is fear.

Dave did the report say where they were camped? The canyon is tightest at SC4. You have the opportunity to get a boatload of experience up there in Alaska right? Is there much discussion about planning routes and campsites based on avoiding likely bear corridors?

In Salt you might not be exactly right in the way of a rambling bear at SC1 , SC2 and SC3; but any bear coming along is going right by or more or less through SC4. Relatively close contact is unavoidable and even the tightest cooking/scent practices are not going to create a situation that misses a bear’s notice; though who knows what exactly prompts a response where a tendency towards avoidance is overcome by , well desire.

There are tight cultural-artifact constraints on campsite locations in Salt Creek. There is also the need to locate campsites where water is reliably available. But if there’s a bear going up or down canyon past that SC4 vicinity/meridian whatever, and really anywhere between Peekaboo and the Upper Jump;  Mike Kelsey jokes aside, it’s basically coming through your campsite. And there’s no alternative except maybe putting the campsite location in a side canyon like the one a little further downstream leading to Angel Arch, which may also have cultural-artifact constraints and you’d have to walk out to the main stem for water. I’d guess this is the core of what has the Needles District focused on preventing a bear problem.; for the sake of the bear(s). I just wish they’d decide what is necessary.

I also don’t really understand why they couldn’t install boxes at each site; but then again that seems like a pretty practical solution at pretty much every established/official site nation-wide. How much could it possibly cost? enough $ for (insert your favorite moderately priced, questionably necessary federal expenditure) maybe?  I mean if you really want to solve the problem.

[David Thomas]

OBX: Here’s the link to the blog:

https://backcountrypost.com/threads/salt-creek-canyonlands.3945/

The bear corridors are pretty easy to ID here in Alaska – often they’re the hiking trails.  That’s my most frequent brown bear sighting – we each come around a bend in the trail and stop and stare at each other for a while.  Given that we have brown bears, the black bears (tasty, fuzzy grizzly snacks) are very reclusive.  I only catch fleeting glimpses of them as they dart back into the bush or forest from the road.  I rarely see any black bear signs on the trails.  Trails are for critters with larger claws or a .338 / pepper spray.   In areas of Alaska without salmon streams nor brown bears, the black bears are less reclusive and I often spot them walking on the gravel road.  They make good pastrami.

In campsites just off established trails, bear boxes are provided.  I wish more federal lands did that.  Okay, a bear box isn’t “wilderness” but neither is the trail itself nor are bears habituated to Mountain House Turkey Tetrazzini a true wilderness phenomenon.

[Terry G]

Hey, @obxcola, when are you going to me there? We are going through starting 4/3. We had a similar trip planned a couple of years ago but were snowed out.  You mentioned a site a bit down the trail to Angel arch, is that covered in the zone permit? How far down the arm?

Thanks all for the great feedback. This is the kind of info I was looking for.

Saying goodbye to the leatherman.  Will mostly use it for slicing cheese and salami as well as cutting tape. I always thought it was a pretty light tool till I put it on the list.

I have done a bit of backpacking in Utah and am used to using sticks and rocks for stakes out of necessity but have never planned around not having stakes. I will give that one some thought.

RE wag bags – If kirk’s cabin is still standing after almost 130 years, I am going to go ahead and pack it out. I understand there is a backcountry toilet at peekaboo — can anyone confirm it or other facilities?

Dave, thanks for the tyvek idea for the ditty bag.  In truth, the arc haul has a pocket I will use to hold these contents, so the weight of the bag is already accounted for in the pack weight. I will need to weigh the contents and plug that in to the list.

Good idea about the rain jacket.  Rain looks unlikely so I will see about the 1oz emergency poncho. I was relying on it to do double duty and provide a bit of warmth / wind resistance as well as rain protection.

Regarding electronics, I may leave the extra battery behind. I plan on doing a little pre-sunrise hiking so, so want something more the the little photon.

 

[obx hiker]

I got a ranger ( a very helpful ranger…yeah!) on the phone yesterday after about a dozen tries and found out a couple of useful things.

1. The have 450 bear vaults as “loaners” at the Needles welcome center. They run a CC but don’t hit the account unless you don’t return it.
2. There is no campsite in that side arm. Part of the side arm may be in the “at Large” zone for that area. I’ll try to see if the at large zones are defined. Evidently though the zone does encompass that part of the main stem around the arm. I mentioned the arm more based on the idea that getting out of the main stem might lessen the chances of a bear encounter. As it is, especially @ SC-4 the main stem is pretty tight so any bear coming through has no choice but to go right by; or essentially through your camp. The other sites are more off the “natural” route and out in the open.
3. I also understand that the Peekaboo campground is closed due to a fire that burned those big cottonwoods? ):  so there’s also now an “at Large” zone around that section of Canyon.
4. IF: it’s been rainy or snowy before your start and assuming you are going up to Cathedral don’t take getting up there for granted! There’s a couple of stretches where you’re coming out of the North Cottonwood drainage and climbing to the basic top of the mesa level that Cathedral Butte pokes up from where the road climbs and also hugs some rims and if it’s slick or muddy it can be interesting. One trick is to plan on doing that stretch during that darkest hour before the dawn assuming that’s as usual the coldest hour so you catch everything frozen. You ought to be able to get a good idea about that from the weather forecast…. whether it might be a concern. Also the first creek crossing on the Beef Basin Road off 211, down by the Dugout Ranch can be interesting if the weather has just warmed up and you’re getting the spring run-off. I’m a fan of the go-slow and don’t create a wave or splash approach to high water crossings but some people like to take the charge through approach; let momentum carry you through… hmmmm  Slow has worked for me so far but hmmm.

Anyway you can get near that side stem for Angel Arch IF you have a permit that allows for at large camping in that “zone” or however it’s designated. You can possibly also change or alter your permit unless all the “slots” are filled. Might want to get some clarity on that. I didn’t pull our permit and not currently up to speed on those details as I’m a happy worker bee on this trip and not the Queen!

And PPS. Don’t know how much slick-rock scrambling you’ve done but the final climb up to Angel Arch can be both confusing and a little daunting in spots. DON”T TURN BACK YOU CAN DO IT! Any and every one of you. Just take your time to figure it out . It goes and it doesn’t have any real exposure. Just possibly a little hard to piece it out.  Who knows; It gets clearer and more obvious every time I go back so maybe now it’s as obvious as the nose on your face and this encouragement is unnecessary. Anyway you’ll be glad you did! It’s really neat up there. Not as high as Angels Landing but somewhat similar in terms of dramatic views.

[JVD]

Salt Creek May 15-19, 2018. Saw several piles of bear scat and clear paw prints in damp sand. At least that’s what they looked like to us, and a park naturalist confirmed based on our pictures. We took our own bear cans, but in fact, the Backcountry office did have at least one for loan. However, I’m not sure how much one can count on those loaners being available.

By the way, there was a fair amount of water along the way, though in places we had to look carefully and be patient. Upper Jump, an unnamed cascade, and Kirk’s Spg all had wonderful water in them. Oases!

It was a great trip with lots to explore, a real sweet place.

[Author]

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