Any horse packers lurking about?

[Emylene VanderVelden]

In addition to backpacking, I have a small addiction to equines. I’m always looking for ways to eliminate needing any extra pack horses, any light weight equine ideas?

[Ed Biermann]

The opposing view

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/432/

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/67114/

[Roger Caffin]

By and large, BPL regards horses as a source of damage to trails and the environment. Those steel horseshoes are not good.

Just a thought.

Cheers

 

[Monte Masterson]

I agree about the damage horses can do to trails, however, the PCT is open to equines.

Actually mules are far better on mountain trails than horses. They’re more sure footed, tougher (can go longer without water), smarter and won’t freak out in circumstances where a horse’s flight instinct might take over. Just don’t try to FORCE them to do anything. Mules have long memories and may wait years to get even. The old saying “kicks like a mule” doesn’t just come from nowhere.

[Emylene VanderVelden]

Here in Canada our horse packers do the majority of trail and shelter maintenance when the passes are closed to traditional foot traffic and plants are dormant. They pack in the supplies to drag logs, cut dead fall, and remove fallen rocks off the trails. The horse pack groups are also one of the biggest defender of the trails systems. I know many horse packers who are responsible for over population control of bears, coyotes, beavers and Cougars making the trail safer for users when the passes open to backpackers. The government issues tags for population control of certain predictors which could not be done without having a quad, snow mobile or horse. The quads and snow mobiles do ten times the damage a horse using the same trail will do.

In terms of numbers horse packers make up 1-1000 foot users. 1000 foot users will do significantly more damage than 1 horse packer in a year. As far as steel shoes, many horse packers are using rubber shoes, removable boots and barefoot horses, most backpackers wouldn’t know the difference but the horse packers are cognizant of those factors. No studies been produced on what steel shoes do as far as damage, we don’t have empirical data. sometimes there are scrapes on rocks. Sometimes scrapes on rocks are caused by backpackers trek poles, snow mobiles or quads. Where I pack with or without horses most of the trails are hard bedrock and foot traffic of any sort, including horses leave minimal impression. It may not be the same every where, but the horse packers taking responsibility for a lot of shelter and trail maintenance is pretty universal.

In Canada, most trail users hate quaders because they leave mass amounts of garbage and huge fire rings they often leave. Horse packers frequently ride in and pack this junk out because it’s too large and numerous for backpackers to do.

As far as pooping in the river goes, horse poop is almost identical to moose poop. It’s more biodegradable than human, dog, coyote, fox, puma, or beaver. Unlike moose, horses don’t stay in the river. They cross, usually slightly uncomfortably and are unlikely to poop while at it.

I think the biggest thing is all trail users have to be respectful. Horse packers need to pack in their own feed, not abraid trails, respect other users and respect the natural environment around them…. Much like their backpacking colleagues. There are places horses should not pack and often for good reason and their own safety. There are many of those places which are open to horse packers doing trail maintenance in the closed pass season when the backpackers can’t make it in. There are also many trails here which are horse trails only because the backpackers wouldn’t want to do the kind of inclines a horse can. Our dual purpose trails often have horse specific off shoots to go through areas either the backpackers can’t or to avoid places the horses can’t.

The numbers of horse packers is not going up and the ones that are out there are doing trail maintenance and preservation you may not see as a backpacker but rest assured is happening. I want to keep the load light on the horses to prevent accidents and injuries to them and others from happening and to allow supplies for trail maintenance to be carried with the least amount of horses through a trail as possible. If the horse packers stop doing the maintenance quads and skidoo will be the ones going in and will do considerably more damage to trails. Just some thoughts from someone who has a foot in both camps.

[Steve M]

In all my travels I’ve seen much more damage by mountain bikers than by horses. ATVs in wilderness areas is a whole nother sad story.

[Lori P]

Without horses, the trail system probably wouldn’t be there. Trail crews have heavy stuff to carry, and already work hard — trail work is usually done by volunteers, too.

On the other hand, the packers being allowed to run a gazillion head of stock along the trails doesn’t seem fair to me…

It’s a tough call, because I’ve met some really nice packers and we all benefit from the presence of horses, but if I were forced to go with pack animals… it would be goats or llamas. Less trail damage, less poop, less time managing them and more flexibility — they are more agile than a mule and goats can even be trained to cross streams on logs or rock hop. Since larger ones can carry up to 40 lbs, two or three animals would be adequate, as they forage and don’t require lots of their own food to be carried with them. I don’t do chairs, ice chests or typical horse packer stuff – I’d be putting the usual backpacker gear on the animals. So no worries about needing the mules.

I love horses, too. But they sure hack up trails.

[Ralph Burgess]

Emylene,  horses are often the best tool for certain jobs such trail maintenance that benefit all trail users.  To the extent that horse packers are commissioned to assist with such work, I don’t think anybody would criticize it.

But private recreational horse use (including packing services for private purposes) is an entirely separate matter that should be assessed on its own merits.   By analogy, bulldozers are essential to construct freeways, but that’s not a good reason to allow me to drive my bulldozer down I-95;   helicopters are essential for S&R, but that’s not a justification for me to buzz the trails on a joyride in a private helicopter.

There is no question that horses pollute and damage trails to some degree.   When horses are being used for the private enjoyment of a small minority of trail users, and to the detriment of majority foot traffic, it seems to me that it’s a fallacy to offset the damage and pollution caused by those privately-used horses against the benefit of the public service that horses may provide in other roles such as trail maintenance.

[Emylene VanderVelden]

Which is entirely a side issue from my question about horse packers who are part of maintenance of trails and attempting to lighten loads on them to reduce impact. In no way was I asking about merits or detriments. I do trail maintenance as such, recreational use information is of little value to me.

Canada has a vastly different trail use system than the United States. We have trails designated specifically for horse or backpacker use. Backpackers are permitted on the horse trails but they are horse trails. If a backpacker doesn’t like sharing with horses they can go to a non horse permitted trail. Same if one does not like ATV’s or mountain bikes.

Canadians also have no reason to run large numbers of livestock across our mountains ;-) We also have a huge number of wilderness areas which are completely uncharted by backpackers for the simple reason there is no trail. The trails we do have were predominately built by horses. These areas are open to any type of use (unfortunately including ATV’s, so much damage…) permits have to be obtained though.

Much of the issue with all types of wilderness activity and ecological impact caused  is mismanagement or irresponsible use of an area not by the activity in question. Saying all recreational horse users are doing significant damage is like saying all backpackers are like the graffiti backpackers charged earlier this year. Those graffiti ‘artists’ caused more detriment to the trail systems than 50 responsible horse users could or would.

The trail use in Canada is determined by the ecological impact of horses and humans. Trails can be closed to both backpackers and horses if the damage is seen as too significant or it interrupts wildlife habitats significantly. There is no doubt any human activity, including or not including equines has a distinct impact on the environment around the area. Some areas are significantly more sensative than others. Wild horses also have an impact on their environment. If mismanaged backpackers or horses will be an issue.

As far as recreational horse use, I believe there should be places for that as well. Places where the damage is considered negligible and where users are aware they can use the trail but they are using a recreational horse area. Which is exactly what it is like in Canada, in a horse area the horse people take priority over other wilderness activity. In a backpacking area, backpackers take priority.

My question is about lightening loads on horses to reduce the impact I make when doing trail maintenance with horses. I don’t get paid for trail maintenance, I do it free. I am betting there are others here as well. Anyone with good ideas?

 

 

[Ed Biermann]

Starting off with multiple animals over a thousand pounds each, how much difference to impact would a hundred pounds or so make? The tools and tack weigh what they weigh. I don’t think you could save enough to make a profound difference.

[Todd Stough]

If you apply lightweight principals to your trail riding, wouldn’t that negate the need for a second pack horse?  A horse can easily carry a person, their gear and food.  Unless you’re going our for weeks at a time then I suppose the horse food would get heavy.

[Emylene VanderVelden]

The difference is in how many horses have to go. If I have 1000 pounds of equipment 5 – 6 horses need to go. If I can reduce the weight and bulk less horses go. A canvas tent traditionally used during trail maintenance is 100lbs. Trading it out for a two pounder saves me half a horse. The more switches the better. It’s cold and unpleasant to sleep in a backpacking tent in early season but I’m willing to do it. Two or Three horses is a better number in more sensative areas if I can manage tools and equipment down that far. As a backpacker I’m very sensative to the impact I may mave for backpackers later in the season and doing trail maintenance means travelling on the most sensitive ecological areas. Areas accessible to horses only when doing trail maintenance before backpacking season starts. I want to make sure it’s managed well. Goats and llamas (likely me too) would drown in early season making crossings, horses can make it. As much as people would like this to be black and white it never is.

[Emylene VanderVelden]

Yeah, I usually stay out a week or two at a time. The horse food usually takes up one horse. Another good reason to take less of them if possible.

[Monte Masterson]

Emylene, when you say horsepacking I assume you mean riding one horse and ponying your gear and provisions on another horse being lead behind you.

I’ve worked as a farrier for over 30 years. Been involved at the highest levels of show and competition (Eventer, Hunter/Jumper, English Arabian, Saddlebred, AQHA Western Pleasure, etc). I’ve heard great trainers say that a horse should never carry more than 1/4 of its weight (saddle, rider and all). Actually, horses are pretty sensitive, especially their tendons. Just look at their lower legs, not much bigger than my wrists (I have Neanderthal wrists) and horses weigh 1000 lbs  plus on average

I would definitely ride either a hunt seat or cut back saddle on the trail. Western saddles are heavy and meant more for people who can’t ride. As the old saying goes “when you ride Western you ride the saddle, when you ride English you ride the horse.”

[Emylene VanderVelden]

That’s great Monte thanks,

I use a tiny Aussie saddle with a horn, it feels like my hunt saddle with the removable free swinging stirrups but the functionality of a horn and places to tie some of my gear. I jockied for a while, I sat about 104lbs then. My saddle, saddle bags and me would be 135lbs tops. Gear in 10-15 pounds more.

Mountain climbing is a big challenge on a horse, I don’t like to stress them or the trails more than I need to. If possible I make the trail usable for me and everyone else to backpack later and leave minimal evidence the horses and I were there cleaning it up.

[D M]

I’ve packed.  Both recreational and trail work. Replacing leather gear with biothane reduces weight. Canvas panniers instead of plastic or metal. Sawbuck instead of saddles to hold panniers. Grazing instead of carrying feed. Hobbles instead of picket ropes. I think that’s it for reducing weight.

Now for a little rant. If you don’t like my opinions don’t read it. I will state that backpacking snobbery ( horse hating ) really gets me down after decades of making it possible with both humans and horses risking their lives and supporting them physically and financially, to keep trails open and nice for everyone. Horses opened up virtually all trails we use now out west and some in the east before backpacking even existed as a recreation. Get real folks and quit being so blinded by your limited knowledge of history. Have respect for those who risked their lives and their equines lives so you could skip happily down a trail. Two horses just died on the pct recently making an effort to keep that trail open. I am sure it was both emotional and financially devastating to the owners/riders. Until you have actually experienced trail marking, trail treading and trail establishing and maintenance with a horse packing crew you have no business criticizing the how what where it’s done. Get involved get some experience before being so darn judegemental. End of rant. Excuse me I’ve got a trail to maintain…..as a volunteer.?

[Mike M]

Many years ago in a universe far, far away………… :)  I was a Wilderness Ranger in the Bob Marshall and we used stock frequently to patrol, open/maintain trails and stock patrol cabins and trail crews.  The current level of trail maintenance and construction would be significantly less effective without stock.

In more recent years as a game warden, we would use stock to patrol backcountry hunting seasons and occasionally patrol backcountry lakes and streams. Always carried a saw and axe and would frequently clear trail as we went.  When you have a poached moose or elk to get out, sure makes life a lot easier with stock :)

As has already been mentioned, simply reducing the amount/weight of gear can reduce the stock needed.  I have often cringed seeing the number of stock that small groups would bring into the backcountry; simply wasn’t needed.

 

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