Another Rain Pant thread

[James holden]

brad …

the UK climbing folks had issues with it no longer being waterproof after a some use, the fabric would soak through or leak

similar thing happened with some BPLers with event westcomb and montane (in fact one was referenced as such in a BPL test article)

same with neoshell

i personally havent had any issues with pertex shield, except for the breathability is subpar … but plenty of proprietary 2.5L fabrics have had delamination issues (do a search for “marmot delamination”)

rain gear is likely the piece most likely to cr@p out on your even after mild use … my suggestion as everyone knows is to buy from a place or brand with a no questions asked warranty

and be prepared to be wet or damp regardless …. if its wet enough, you wont be dry regardless

;)

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Brad is right that the Haglofs Lim III jacket is GT Paclite (my mistake). I’m not really sure what the differences are between Active and Paclite. I’m mostly interested in that they’re both Gore-Tex, so they have the warranty and normally GT stays waterproof for at least a reasonable while. Opting for GT, having that work for a couple years and then warrantying it when it fails is the most pragmatic strategy I can think of except for maybe just buying cheap stuff and expecting to toss it when it fails.

Haglofs also did very well in the BPL SOTM on Rain Jackets a couple years ago with their Ozo jacket taking first place. So my hopes are high that the LIM III will also have a good fit. Haglofs claims full articulation. TrekkInn.com has the LIM III for $176. I tried ordering twice but they seem incapable of processing my credit card.

http://www.haglofs.com/de/en/Jackets/L-I-M-III-JACKET-MEN/p/602614.2C5

Regarding eVent, I’ve had one great jacket and one disappointing jacket with it. I don’t know why this is.

[Bob Shuff]

Warranty talk leads me back to companies like patagonia or Rei.  Not only do they have a great warranty, but you might even walk into the store and get the replacement on the spot.

[James holden]

OR, EB, LL Bean, MEC have great warranties …

dead bird, MH, patagucci are pretty good overall …

westcomb (sadly as i love canadian made things) didnt help with the aforementioned BPLers even failure, and the less we talk about marmot the better …

and anything goretex has the additional warranty through em of course

its not IF youll eventually own rain gear that fails .. but WHEN it fails and if you feel like you got good use out of it

i own and use OR rain jackets and dead bird rain pants

which reminds me i need to seam grip another a rip in my dead bird goretex XCR (8 years old)

;)

[Justin Baker]

“I’m not really sure what the differences are between Active and Paclite.”

Active shell is a 3 layer construction, or at least it appears that way in person. It has a fabric inner layer instead of the grey coating that paclite has. It should breathe much better and when the face fabric wets out it should feels less clammy/cold.

[Brad Rogers]

I have the Ozo and it is a fantastic jacket in most respects.  The hood is the best I have used and the thumbloops are great.  I would not hesitate to get a Haglofs shell again.

GT Packlite is a 2.5 layer shell and GT Active (at least the older stuff) is 3 layer (so is GT Pro and GT C-Knit) and has much better breathability than Packlite.  I have found Packlite stuff to be a little stuffy, but keeps water out very well.

Bob – Sadly, REI only has a 1 year warranty now.

[Sam Farrington]

On the last rain pant thread, I posted about the Luke’s Ultralight also, but the post was deleted w/o expl, so I’ll try again.
They are made of Pertex Shield, which has at least avg WP, but the breathability is not in the class of eVent or the most expensive GTX.
Don’t care, because I will only use them in conditions where hypothermia is threatened, and the legs don’t perspire a lot. Still, in extreme cold rain, they can make a big difference. Up top i use a Patty M-10 that replaced an older Patty model.
Do care about lightweight and getting them on quick, before I’m drenched.
So they come with leg zips to the knees, and are the lightest I could find with full WP leg zips.
The waist and inseam can be specified, so the leg zips come down to just where I want them.
The price is higher than mass produced brands, but not ridiculous & got exactly what I want, except that i had to choose between red and blue, as the lt. gray in the picture was not avail.
Do plenty of bushwhacking, but not in hypothermia weather.

[Peter S]

I still have my Haglöfs OZO pullover from circa 8 years ago (the first gen i think) absolutely awesome. As mentioned above, i also have the matching Haglöfs Lim I trousers bought at the same time. The only thing that I don’t like about them is the clammy nature of paclite (or any other 2.5 layer construction for that matter).

If you don’t care about clammyness, then I’d recommend paclite for low weight and longtime waterproofness. Also more supple than many cheaper 2,5 layers IMO.

My point in this thread is, that you can now get GoreTex Active shell for about the same weight as paclite. Advantage: No Clammyness (or a lot less to be more specific).

As it is, I don’t understand why Goretex Active Shell hasn’t replaced paclite completely. It actually seem as though Active Shell is being faced out. Paclite is still going strong…

[Bob Shuff]

When I start getting this many choices, I make a spreadsheet, and a couple things became obvious:

• GoreTex PacLite and Pertex pants are ~$160 and up – more than I want to spend.  I found one set of GTX Active pants at $349 – presumably alpine climbing gear.
• There’s 2.5 and 3 layer proprietary sprinkled throughout the remaining $130 and less options.  I would take 3 layer all things being equal, but weight and price might be more important – this is BPL – right?

Here’s my list sorted by price.  Let me know if you think I’ve missed anything.

$69 – Montbell Thunder Pass @ 9.1oz

$74 – Patagonia Torrentshell @ 10.0oz

$79 – Montbell Rain Trekker @ 8.6oz

$80 – TNF Venture 1/2 Zip @ 7.4oz

$80 – Marmot PreCip @ 8.9oz

$85 – Montbell Versatile @ 3.6oz

$85 – Montbell Peak Shell @ 4.6oz

$110 – Haglofs LIM Proof @ 6.3oz

$129 – Patagonia Alpine Houdini @ 5.4oz

$130 – Luke’s UltralightLUL eVent @ 7.2oz

For the lightest options, the Montbell Versatile or Peak Shell seems to be the bargains with 2.5 or 3 layer construction.  Can anyone comment on their warranty – if I find they leak in a year or two?  I’ve had good experiences with warranty exchanges with TNF, Marmot and Patagonia.

For a more durable pant, I’m still torn, although a late entry from TNF looks interesting.  I’m sure the various 2.5 layer technologies are slightly different, but is it noticeable?  Unfortunately, There are not many rain paints available to try on locally, except maybe the PreCip at REI.  I need to go to Boulder or Seattle maybe to find a better selection to see and try-on.

In any case, I’m still considering the options.  My next backpack is an overnighter in the desert and I won’t need rain pants for that.  Greater need will be late-Mar or Apr/May in the local mountains – we can get cold storms well into spring, and we’re still waiting for the el nino effect to bring us some of those promised storms.

Thanks again for everyone’s help and advice.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Regarding jackets, early Peter S mentioned the Archaeopteryx Tecto FL and I responded saying the Haglofs LIM III was similar but heavier. I was confusing the Tecto FL with the Arcteryx Norvan, which is a nice looking 3 layer GoreTex jacket (probably paclite) for 7.5oz. The LIM III is 1oz heavier and has the chest pocket, thumb loops and 1″ longer cut, but now I realize isn’t a proper 3 layer jacket.

First Impressions: Haglofs LIM Proof Pants

I got my LIM Proof pants this weekend. Here’s a few quick comments in case anyone is thinking ordering.

SIZING

I got a size large and I’m 5’11, 170 lbs and normally wear a 32 x 32 mens pant. The size large is a bit big in the waist. It would probably be ideal for a 34-36″ waist. On me, the waist elastic works fine but I think when I have a pack on it’ll ride down. The pants have a draw string in the waist as well that I’ll probably normally use to get it tighter than just the non-adjustable waist elastic achieves. The cut of the pants isn’t as slim as they looked in the picture. They’re a bit tapered but a pretty regular cut. Perhaps slightly looser than the Montane Minimus and similar to the GoLite Reed. The length is nice and long like I wanted. Inseam seems to be 32-33″ (haven’t measured). If there wasn’t an ankle elastic I might end up stepping on the backs a bit. As is, the length is great. They don’t ride up when I sit. On hind sight I could have probably gotten a medium. I slimmer butt area would be good but the longer length is much appreciated.

FEATURES

The pants have no features other than a slightly stretchy drawcord in the waist hem, and shockcord in the ankle openings (3/32″ shockcord?) with cordlocks. The ankles look like they’ll work great. The waist drawcord doesn’t have a cord lock, so right now I have to tie it. I’ll add a cordlock but it might press a bit since the opening is inside the pants. I love how they don’t have a fly. Such a dumb feature on rain pants with rain pooling in your lap.

MATERIALS

I thought the face fabric was going to be weird since Haglofs talks about how stretchy it is, but it’s pretty standard ripstop nylon. It’s got a funky triple ripstop pattern, but looks pretty close to untreated nylon. Right now the water beads well (obviously) but it doesn’t look like it has a heavy DWR coating on it so I’m not sure how long that’ll last. The upside is that they’re not shiny at all. They could almost pass for black khaki’s. The membrane feels decently thick, which is a very crude indicator of waterproofness and longevity.

Overall they’re a bit big in the waist/butt but I like the materials, weight and quality of construction.

[Bob Shuff]

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the detailed review.  did you buy the LIM PROOF pants from TrekkInn (you mentioned above) or somewhere else?  I can’t seem to get a good feel for the warranty or how it might work.  I did just notice this on amazon…http://www.amazon.com/Haglofs-L-I-M-Proof-Running-Pants/dp/B00JBW1SZ4.  are these the same pants?

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Those Amazon pants are the same. $65 for size lrg is a great deal. I got mine on eBay for $67 but the seller only has Sm, XL and XXL left:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291358335374?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=590517843148&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

The LIM Proof pants were pretty cheap ($67) and sold by someone in Europe, so I’m operating on the basis of probably not being able to warranty them. So I didn’t really look into it. For a jacket I’d like to buy a GT jacket and make sure I’ve got a good warranty situation.

Twice I tried to buy the LIM III jacket for $176 from TrekkInn, but they kept cancelling my order a few days later saying my credit card didn’t work, but on my credit card online account it said the transaction was fully approved. So I gave up. If I can find the LIM III jacket somewhere else for a good deal I’ll probably buy it. The Arcteryx Norvan looks nice too but it seems tough to find substantially under $300.

[Brad Rogers]

The Arctrex Norvan is 3 layer GT c-knit and I think it used to be GT Active but I am not for sure on that.

As a replacement for the LIM III have you looked at the Montbell Torrent Flier? It’s a ~8.5oz GT Packlite jacket with pit zips.  I have no idea how good the hood is but it looks like it has potential as does the 3 layer GT Montbell Storm Chaser with pit zips for 10oz.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Oh I thought “c-knit” just referred to the backing material and not the membrane.

“Have you looked at the Montbell Torrent Flier?”
No, but glancing at it quickly now I see it has a 71cm center back length, which is short and a big pet peeve of mine. The LIM III is 80cm which is long for a UL jacket but still not long. Ideally I’d like about 85cm so the jacket stays put under a hipbelt and when I bend over. As I recall the Norvan is about an inch shorter, so 77-78cm.

[Peter S]

Dan, which size Lim III  jacket do you want? After I bought the Arcteryx Tecto, I don’t use my Haglöfs Lim III jacket anymore. (Yep, I have that too ;-) )

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Large :)

[Crow]

I use Outdoor Research Helium rain pants and Helium II jacket.  Had I known the Helium HD jacket existed at the time, I may have bought that instead.  Not sure.

I actually had my sights set on the Montbell Versalite, but I would have had to order it online, and I liked the fit of the Helium after trying them out locally.  I don’t know how the Versalite material compares to Pertex Shield+, though.

[Peter S]

@Dan, mine is a medium…oh well :-).

OP, sorry for thread drifting..

[Marc Dalessio]

Does anyone have experience with the Berghaus Pac-lite Gore-tex pants?: http://usa.berghaus.com/p/mens-gore-tex-paclite-shell-pants?pp=24.

Says they weigh in at 6.5oz and I’ve had good experiences with pac-lite before. The retail price says $170, but I’ve seen them online for much less than that.

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

I’m in So Cal with all that scratchy brush. Rain pants are just too hot for me. I have a ULA Rain skirt (or kilt, it’s just a rectangle with elastic on one side). It’s as durable as any piece of silnylon might be. My only issue with it is that last bit of velcro makes the skirt a little too narrow for big leaps. But it undoes itself automatically if I have to leap far, so I’m never really trapped by it. Just annoyed.

[Bob Shuff]

that’s sorta where I’m at, i.e. rain kilt.  I’ve looked at ZPacks with a zipper, and Dutch and ULA make silnylon.  I think MLD makes both, and it looks like a reasonable DIY project for a novice like me.  the zipper would seem to be worse for the leaping your talking about.

How’s that for OP drift?

It’s so nice today, and I was in the desert last weekend, so it’s getting harder and harder to think about rain paints.  I figure I need to decide something  (or not) before heading up in the mountains this summer.

 

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Likely the best WPB material is Gore-Tex Pro Shell. VERY breathable and more wind-resistants than eVent. (This from my own experience.) But I dunno if anyone makes it in a UL weight.

Try washing your WPB rain pants in NikWax Wash and then NikWax DWR. Then after dried in a dryer spray on Revivex and let dry. This double treatment seems to last longest for me.

If water ain’t beading up on the surface it “wets out” and the fabric ceases to breathe. Thus the need to always renew your DWTR at least 2X a year.

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