A good alternative to WPB gear for ACTIVE backpacking

[Richard Nisley]

Daryl & Daryl,

Thanks for pointing out that typo. It now correctly states, “If you wear a moisture wicking base layer like a Cap 4 or R1, under a windshirt”

[Armand C]

If you are in heavy rain you’re probably going to get wrecked.

Light rain or snow, cold or windy I use a softshell. As light as a Black Diamond Alpine Start or as heavy as an Patagonia Adze. Just depends.

 

[Richard Nisley]

Ken,

7 MET backpacking is exertion dependent rather than speed dependent. Going down a smooth path, your speed would be high, climbing over a ridge, your speed would be low. Although you can exert up to 12 – 15 MET for a short period of time, 7 MET is the typical limit that you can sustain indefinitely.

[kevperro .]

Jerry Adams –

Apex may be warmer than fleece but what we need is proximity to the skin layer when wet and the ability to transfer moisture.    Fleece is king.    We just need more lightweight options that are designed for backpacking where you need to dump heat off your core and keep extremities comfortable.    In my opinion, we need more hybrid designs where you body map where to apply fleece and were to leave it off (because you overheat).

I have an Apex quilt which I consider as “insurance weight” for traveling in wet climates.  It is a goose down replacement that has potentially better resistance to prolonged moisture.    I’d never use it as a replacement for fleece.  Apples and oranges as far as I’m concerned.

You know what most interest me in the new rain material market?    That new Gortex that doesn’t need a DWR layer.    Mainly because it wouldn’t wet-out like DWR based products.    I’d like to see more versions in full-featured jackets that you can ventilate rather than depend upon the breathability of the fabric for moisture transfer.    I’d like to see versions designed around a body wearing a pack and the need to ventilate all that body moisture.

Those are the areas I’d like to see new products.    New designs that are based upon HOW we use the clothing.   Not based upon some dumbass in a shower test.

[Jerry Adams]

“Not based upon some dumbass in a shower test.”

yeah, it’s hard to correlate a test like that to real use.  You really have to actually use in real conditions.  Still, things like the shower test can be useful.

I’m not telling anyone they shouldn’t use fleece if they’re happy with it.  I use fleece often.  But if you want to minimize weight Apex is better.

If it’s not super cold/windy I just do nylon base layer, WPB jacket, even in the wettest conditions.  That’s what works for me.  Add Apex if it’s really cold.

 

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Iago

You are describing our kit and practice almost exactly.

As for fleece vs Apex: the fleece is far more robust than the Apex when you are wearing a pack.

Cheers

[Kris]

Richard,

I posted a fairly lengthy response but it has disappeared.  Perhaps I killed it when I went back to edit it and change a period into a comma.  Perhaps it will eventually return.  Too much to type again, and in the end, nothing that you probably don’t know anyway.

Kris

[Richard Nisley]

Bradley,

Polartec makes MANY different versions of Thermal Pro and they may react differently when saturated with water. Natick Lab recommends Polartec Thermal Pro (#4060) in the 7.2 oz/yd2 variant for optimal moisture handling.

[James holden]

folks …

DO NOT EDIT ANY LONG POSTS !!!

they will disappear faster than a bear with your UL freeze dried honey which you store in a cuben stuff sack because you could bear (pun intended) the weight of a canister

;)

[Kris]

Richard,

Bob Moulder is a skilled internet archaeologist so I’m able to repost (Thank you, Bob).

 

Richard wrote: “I sent him a personal email with my test results but I didn’t receive a reply.”

My apologies. I tried to respond but it looks like there was a problem. I saw your PM and responded with my personal email because I wanted to show you a pic of our gear. If you did then email me, I never received it.

If I remember correctly, you asked what I thought the temp range of PCU 3A was. I can’t provide any specific numbers and I was going to caution against using our standards for civilian use but, from this thread, it looks like that was never your intent anyway.

I’m not sure about the numbers because those never get pushed down to the soldiers. When we draw a piece of equipment, no one ever tells us how to use it (with the exception of changes in parachutes). I imagine that asking the Supply Sergeant about a temperature range would result in something like: “Do you need to be told when you’re cold, troop?” In fact, I’ve never seen any of the PCU diagrams that you post. I looked at the one that you linked in your PM to me and I’m not sure it’s official. It had government purchasing info., which makes it looks official but I saw what I thought were glaring mistakes in it. I was going to email the PM-SOF (the SOF section of Natick) to ask if that brochure was official but I forgot about it.

My best guess is that the temp. range of 3A was designed to be similar to that of 3 – not only because of the nomenclature but also because it feels that way to me. The first time I used 3A, I decided that Patagonia had probably used a thickness of Alpha that was comparable to the PCU 3 fleece. Absent other factors like wind & rain, I think PCU 3 and PCU 3A perform similarly. The differences become apparent when those other factors are present.

It looks like you are interested in a temp range for use as a relative rating rather than an absolute rating (like dendrochronology calibration of carbon dating). Let me provide some detail on variables you might not have considered. Special Forces will differ from civilian backpackers in acclimation, thermoregulation, and exothermic process.

1) Acclimation: SF is one of the few jobs where a person will spend the majority of their time outdoors. In general, during the week, more hours are spent outdoors than indoors. That is true all year long. It might be useful to think of the difference in a thruhiker when compared against a dayhiker.
2) Thermoregulation: Cardiovacular conditioning has a large effect on thermoregulation because of the way that the body shunts blood (in my opinion, one of the most interesting physiological properties as it affects so much). As the cardio capability of Green Berets and civilians is likely to be different so will the ability to accommodate temperatures outside of the comfort zone that one is acclimated to. It consistently surprised me how much better US troops handled the Iraqi summer than did Iraqi soldiers that had lived there all of their lives. Don’t underestimate the effect of cardio.
3) Exothermic Process: SF carries a lot of weight and can do so for a long time. The activity level makes hyperthermia more likely than hypothermia. Take a look at this pic:

That’s me during winter in Kabul. That’s the gear I wore routinely even before putting on a backpack. You can’t see that my armor is also carrying stuff on my back (3L camelback, radio, strobe light, flashbang grenades, chem lights, etc.) I never weighed it but I think it probably weighs about 50 lbs. So SF clothing requirements are for guys that are generating a lot more heat than a civilian is likely to.

I hope this is helpful, Richard. I apologize again if it appeared I was ignoring you. I started out university life as a Physics Major until I realized that I wanted to be Rambo. So I have nothing but respect for your effort to qualitatively determine an ideal clothing system.

Kris

(Thanks again for the back-up, Bob.)

[Bob Moulder]

You’re welcome, Kris.

I had the same thing happen to me earlier today and was super-mega pissed, lol… I have the text downloaded with the thread alert msg so that’s where the backup came from.

[Daryl and Daryl]

“If it’s not super cold/windy I just do nylon base layer, WPB jacket, even in the wettest conditions”

Jerry,

I’m envious you can keep warm with the combo described above.  My old backpacking partner could too.  I haven’t been able to keep warm with similar gear but thought I’d give it one more try to see if it would work for me this time..

So today I wore a lightweight polypropylene top with a wpb jacket on the 15 minute (each way) to and from the gym.

To Gym-50F with light wind.  Walking at 3mph pace.

Uncomfortably cold for first ten minutes.  Upper torso damp from sweat and getting even colder during last 5 minutes.

To Home-44F with light wind.  Walking at 3 mph pace.

Uncomfortably cold for first ten minutes.  Upper torso damp from sweat and getting even colder during last 5 minutes.  Hands getting cold enough to lose some dexterity.

 

 

 

[Bob Moulder]

Daryl and Daryl,

Good example of the extreme subjectivity of this topic—I think I would have started out slightly cool but needing to unzip/vent toward the end!

[Daryl and Daryl]

Bob,

Yes, the individual differences are large.  Hiking with the same friend for 10 years or so really made this clear to me because he and I are very different.  He can be dry to the touch and warm wearing a thin nylon pullover as we switch-back our way up and over a pass at 32F.  I’m right next to him, have been uncomfortably cold since we left camp, am soaking wet from head to toe from sweat and keep adding layers to compensate…..unsuccessfully.  Different strokes for different folks.

Another friend has cold feet at night.  My feet are so warm at night I must stick them out of the bag to go to sleep.

I know another guy who frequents these forums who usually uses the Oxford comma.  I rarely use it.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Daryl

I’m right next to him, have been uncomfortably cold since we left camp, am soaking wet from head to toe from sweat and keep adding layers to compensate…..unsuccessfully.
This is completely nonsensical as you have written it. How can you be ‘uncomfortably cold’ and yet soaking wet from sweat????? Something is wrong!

I can understand you being cold when your clothing is damp – that makes sense. I can understand your friend being fairly dry and hence warm with minimal clothing. I suggest the difference is that you are starting off with too much clothing, and all your problems are flowing from this. It’s not new.

Just as an experiment, try starting with minimal clothing instead. To be sure, you will be cold for the first few minutes until your metabolism gets going. Persevere: stay cold and work hard to warm up, but stick with the bare minimum of clothing. Carry the warm clothing and put it on when you stop – but take it off again before you move.

At +4 C I am wearing one layer of Taslan (my MYOG smock) and nothing more. My wife does the same. At -4 C I cheat and wear a light thermal top under the Taslan – until I get warm. If I come close to sweating – I strip down.

Cheers

[Iago Vazquez]

@ Daryl, I have this friend who I go with on most backpacking trips. Active, super strong guy. Able to afford whatever gear he decides to get. I know he sleeps much colder than I do. Several occasions when I would be wearing lightweight baselayers to bed and a 40F bag and he’s wearing multiple layers (hooded fleece included) and a zero bag. The only other people I camp with are my wife and my son. He is only 8 yo, but uses similar layers going to bed than I do (in his size:)), and my wife just needs a bit extra (in the described scenario she would take a fleece top, or a bag rated to 30F or both). So I know my friend needs a lot more insulation than us to be warm in bed. Not only that, in his family, all four of them (+ mom and two kiddos) require the same amount of insulation when they camp as he does, so we are just two worlds apart when it comes to insulating needs as families. This also plays at home and in the car. Their bedding has three times more loft than ours, and while I keep my car in the 60s range, he keeps it in the high 80s–thank god for dual climate control :D So I wonder if this differential is conditioned by how warm people are used to feeling on a regular basis. Just a thought.

Last weekend this friend and I came out of an overnight trip. Temperature on the 3 hour trek was 20F as we got to the car at 10:30 a.m. Didn’t bother looking at my thermometer earlier, as night time temperatures were below 0F–my thermometer’s limit. As we are hiking out together with about 35# or so each (yes, I gotta bring my weight down :), working on it), I was wearing some warming up layer for the first fifteen minutes or so as we left camp to warm up (I think it was my heavy weight down jacket I had on while packing up). But after those fifteen minutes I am wearing a powerstretch shirt and a thick uninsulated softshell (BD BDV I think is the model) the rest of the trek. I was very comfortable the whole time. The same pieces I wore on top during the trek in the previous day at 0F, and I was comfortable. However, he’s wearing a winter heavy down jacket (Rab Neutrino) all the way to the car. I would have been so unbearably hot in a heavy down jacket I probably would have passed out if I didn’t take it off. But he didn’t despite ample opportunity… Claimed to be comfy. So when people talk about having a very different temperature than their friends, I understand.

[Jerry Adams]

Daryl, good info

Sometimes I add my 2.5 oz/yd2 apex vest, like if it goes below 32 F, and if it’s windy.

Yeah, different people are different, and is the serial comma joke getting old yet : )

[Daryl and Daryl]

lago,

Thanks for understanding.

[Bob Moulder]

D&D looks as if one of your posts went poof! so I am copying and sending it to you via PM.

BPL’s latest MAJOR BUG…. it has bitten me and others as well!!

[Ethan A.]

Kris, D&D, Eric and Bob, same happened to me on two other threads. I’ve already posted a bug report in the bug section as well as emailed RJ. You might like to take a moment to comment on the bug report to help get it resolved more quickly. Super annoying.

In the meantime, to avoid losing anything compose your posts outside of the platform and then copy and paste.

[Daryl and Daryl]

<i>Roger,</i>

Thanks for trying to help.

 

<i>(1) “I’m right next to him, have been uncomfortably cold since we left camp, am soaking wet from head to toe from sweat and keep adding layers to compensate…..unsuccessfully.
</i> This is completely nonsensical as you have written it. How can you be ‘uncomfortably cold’ and yet soaking wet from sweat????? Something is wrong!”

It’s easy for me.  I sweat when exercising even if I am cold.  Just lucky I guess.

 

(2) “I can understand you being cold when your clothing is damp – that makes sense. I can understand your friend being fairly dry and hence warm with minimal clothing. I suggest the difference is that you are starting off with too much clothing, and all your problems are flowing from this. It’s not new.

Just as an experiment, try starting with minimal clothing instead. To be sure, you will be cold for the first few minutes until your metabolism gets going. Persevere: stay cold and work hard to warm up, but stick with the bare minimum of clothing. Carry the warm clothing and put it on when you stop – but take it off again before you move.”

I’ve done this experiment hundreds of times during my last 50 years of backpacking.  Underdressing at the start does not prevent the problem.  I’ve endured being uncomfortably (and possibly dangerously) cold for prolonged periods to see if it will stop the sweating.  Nope.  Sweat happens.

“all your problems are flowing from this” Including the problem I have with my inconsiderate neighbor?

At +4 C I am wearing one layer of Taslan (my MYOG smock) and nothing more. My wife does the same. At -4 C I cheat and wear a light thermal top under the Taslan – until I get warm. If I come close to sweating – I strip down.

I would be cold and wet wearing your Taslan (and cold, wet and stinky wearing mine).

 

My solution is to wear closed cell garments on my upper torso.  They keep me warmer when they are wet than conventional clothing.  So if you see a guy coming down the trail wearing a float coat on a 60F day it’s probably me.

Cheers

[Armand C]

@iago

You describe how I roll 75% of the time. Polartec Power Grid or Power Stretch and a some type of medium  to lightweight softshell. While active that combo keeps me quite comfortable. Last time I got out I wore an OR Ferrosi and Marmot Caldus with a lightweight synthetic t-shirt and I was perfectly comfortable and even hot at times in the low 30 degrees range.

Though I do keep a light 40g primaloft synthetic in the backpack just in case.

 

[Bob Moulder]

A formula that works for a lot of people, apparently!

I wear an OR Echo T-shirt under R1 Grid under a MB Versalite shell. On the move I’m good to about 5°F all buttoned up and to about 40°F with everything unzipped, sleeves up on forearms, hood down, pit zips open, with varying configurations in between. Warmer than that and the either the R1 or Versalite must go.

[Daryl and Daryl]

iago,

Oops.  I called you lago earlier.  Sorry. .

Can’t edit it because the post might go away.  Tried to edit one word in  a long post earlier today and entire post went away.

[Jerry Adams]

“Just as an experiment, try starting with minimal clothing instead. To be sure, you will be cold for the first few minutes until your metabolism gets going.”

+1

[Author]

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