A good alternative to WPB gear for ACTIVE backpacking

[Stumphges]

Interesting. Thanks Mike.

[Brett Peugh]

I believe there is a difference in the Patagonia Level 4 Gen II and Gen III with the former having a higher HH and the latter having a higher CFM.  I know my gen II works pretty well in the rain as pointed out.

[Paul S.]

Woubeir,

I did a forum search and found some old specs on Luminara, which is the fabric used on the 2013 Squamish.  Any way to know if they are still valid for the Nodin?

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=90111

[Stumphges]

Paul,

Only way to know is to have it tested. I contacted Arcteryx for a comparison between Squamish, Nodin and Incendo. Their reply was surprisingly uninformative – they said each fabric would have the same water and wind-resistance. Absurd. In the past they have provided customers with CFM numbers. Another customer posing the same question might get a different answer then the one I got; it might depend on which customer service representative answers your email. Calling might get a different response, too.

[Paul S.]

Would be great to have a “coffee filter” type test for HH. Some basic test to see if it’s > or < 300 mm HH.

[Richard Nisley]

Paul,

I tested the 2015 LUL Argon RS fabric at 351 mm HH. You could verify with Luke that the specs haven’t changed. If not, you could use it or any other vendor tested 300 mm fabric, as the reference for an inexpensive “comparitive squeeze” test. Twist to seal 2 cups of water in a ball and squeeze until 3 drops are pushed through. Compare the relative effort to determine ~ <300, 300, or >300 mm.

[Paul S.]

Good stuff.  I can use my 300 mm HH jacket as a reference point. The 2 cup amount is a good reference point but without a baseline it’s hard to know what relative pressure.

[Stumphges]

England’s Paramo has released their lightest combo of separate windshirt & “directional fleece” (aka pump liner), the Ostro. These appear to maybe be replacing the Bora combo reviewed here: https://backpackinglight.com/paramo-bora-smock-fleece-review-pullan/

The Ostro windshirt is the first Paramo “wind proof” that’s gotten into UL territory, at 5.9 ounces.

The Ostro fleece, however, is still heavy at 13.4 ounces. A comparable hoody made of the traditional pump liner fabric only weighs about 10 ounces; the fabric in this fleece, which is meant to be worn alone in fairer weather, probably has some additional structure for durability.

Many posters here over the years have called for Paramo, which for decades only sold these two layers as  sewn-together one-piece jackets, to introduce modular systems that would allow for greater flexibility and quicker dry times. Although this combo is their lightest yet, Paramo does not seem to be making any “rain room” claims about it. I believe that every other jacket or combo they’ve produced has been accompanied by their Leeds University ‘4 hours in very, very heavy rain’ claim.

[Diane Pinkers]

Today I hiked in all day rain, in 47-49 F temps, wearing a Patagonia Houdini, with Cabela’s ECWCS mid baselayer.  I was warm enough, except for my forearms (I hike with trekking poles) were a little cool. In fact, my temperature while going up hill was well regulated, no fussing about with layers.  But, I was NOT dry, in any shape or form.  The hike I was on has a a pyramid elevation profile, and once I was on the downhill side, I switched to my WPB jacket, because my effort was no longer sufficient to sustain warmth, and added my WPB Z-packs mittens over the powerdry gloves.  If I’d had my umbrella with me, the windshirt/baselayer might have been the perfect combo, but I was interested in trying out the jacket/baselayer combo unadulterated.  Once I got back to the campground where the trail head started, I ducked under the picnic shelter, and swapped out for Patagonia’s midweight Capilene and a Melanzana grid fleece under the WPB jacket while waiting for water to boil for tea.

On the move, for a day hike, it was a good combo, but what if I’d been out overnight?  My moving baselayer and windjacket were SOAKED.  I would have had to put on cold, wet layers, and hoped that I could generate enough body warmth while moving–and I am NOT anywhere close to fit like a Navy SEAL.  I wouldn’t have wanted to keep the wet layers on, put dry layers over top, and sat around in camp, trying to dry the base layer, especially because I use a down bag.  So, is this system really useful for Joe Hiker?  Mind you, I’m not sure that I would have been better off starting in the WPB layer today, it was constant rain the whole way along.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Ya might wanna take a look at the new GTX The North Face Apex Flex jacket (Flex B/C it’s got Elastine in the knit.

It’s a soft-shell but now with GTX and also a light knap inside for comfort against the skin. And no, like the military gear, it’s not UL.

So I dunno if it’s a GTX Pro Shell membrane or “regular” GTX But it appears that the DWR on soft exteriors is more water repellant than DWRs on hardshells.  Plus the Apex Flex parka has pit zips so it may be the less breathable “regular” GTX and need those zips.

I have an LL Bean camo hunting GTX shell with a hung liner that is soft polyester knit “fuzz” (for silence when hunting) on the outside and that parka does keep it’s DWR much longer than my GTX or eVent hard shell parkas. And when the DWR is renewed it always works better than DWR renewed hardshell style weaves.

So maybe this TNF Apex Flex parka works in a similar manner due mainly to its soft fuzzy outer shell. Or not.

 

BTW, this thread has GROWN!

[Roger Caffin]

I would have had to put on cold, wet layers, and hoped that I could generate enough body warmth while moving–and I am NOT anywhere close to fit like a Navy SEAL.
There is no perfect set of clothing which will keep you happy and dry under both fine and very bad conditions. One has to simply accept that and move on.

Now, what to do the next morning? Well, hopefully, you have not got all your clothing wet the first day. Accept that some of it will be wet (or damp) and work from there. Put on the wet clothing at the very last moment, and stick a windshirt over the top – then move. From here there are two possibilities:
* The weather will clear up and your wet clothing will dry out.
* The weather will not clear up, so your wet clothing will still be wet.

There is one other way to handle the conditions: abandon the whole WPB jacket idea and use a good poncho over both you and your pack. You won’t stay ‘dry’ because some condensation will happen – but you will stay warm enough. They work fine for us.

Cheers

[James Marco]

Diane, One of the most important things about UL hiking is staying dry under ANY conditions. If you cannot sleep dry, chances are you will be cold and miserable, and, putting yourself at risk. 32F-55F can be the most challenging. You can survive OK at 69-65F, but below that requires extra ways to deal with cold.

In the ADK’s, I plan on being wet. Dew: Moving through the heavy woodlands means wet. I get wet up to my crotch from all the scrub. I get wet most mornings and often take off my clothes at night wet from sweat. A built-in a cloths line under my tarp to help at night. IFF I use rain gear, I still get wet. It will hold moisture at every leak point (cuffs, chest, neck/face.) Sweat and leaks means my hiking cloths will be wet. This is the majority of hiking before 1000. Especially, after a night rain or mountain mist (the terrain looks a bit “smoky” from all the evaporated water) which is actually heavy localized fog with enough water to feel like rain. It sticks and gets into everything, unless it is covered and/or slightly warmer than ambient. And it leaves everything with a heavy water coating.

I also deal with storms in the ADK’s. Rain storms often come in rather quickly, pour on you for a half hour, then move off just as quickly. This is where having any rain gear really helps. A 1-2 hour storm is not a problem. Between dew and rain storms (often thunder and lightening,) this comprises 80% of the bad weather. And, you want your sleeping cloths/camp cloths dry in both cases.

Weather systems can mean as much as a week of rain. Often intermittent, sometimes very heavy, sometimes with heavy winds. Since there is little I can do about it, I just hike wet. I am usually saturated by the second day, but moving, means I generate enough heat to be OK. No, I cannot stop for lunch at 35F. Eat as you hike. After arriving I set up my tarp, throw my pack under it, then get under it myself. I strip off my rain gear and lay it out as a ground cloth. (It is cheap and easily fixed with a bit of duct tape.) I dig out my bedding, blow up my mat, and get ready to change into my dry duds. I am dry after changing, though getting out of wet cloths can be challenging. I fire up my stove and start cooking. Cocoa, first. At the end of my cocoa, I feel human again and just start enjoying the storm from under my tarp. Of course, everything is hung-up, drying or not, but certainly not getting wetter. Stink??? Yup. But hey, 23pounds for two weeks means you don’t carry around deodorant or extra cloths.

For safety, I always travel with my quilt/bag, down jacket, long johns, and sleeping socks in a dry/compression bag. I use a CCF pad or a NeoAir, neither of which picks up water. I have rolled a canoe with it and still had my sleep gear dry. Highly recommended despite the 3oz penalty.

[Roger Caffin]

I always travel with my quilt/bag, down jacket, long johns, and sleeping socks in a dry/compression bag.
You bet!
In my case: poncho over the top of my waterproof pack, good silnylon stuff sack, good plastic bag. Water does not get inside the pack, but …

No, I cannot stop for lunch at 35F.
Not when it is raining, anyhow!
Cheating around Sydney, Australia: good camping caves under the sandstone cliffs – sometimes.

Cheers

[James Marco]

Yeah, some caves in NY, too. Usually, they are more big assed granite boulders with a dry area under them. Sometimes, a big tree will allow you to snuggle up next to it in a driving rain and stay fairly dry. Good for tinder in any case, even when it is raining for three days non-stop. A small fire under the corner of the tarp lets you stay pretty warm, even when it is frozen over all around you. The woods are easy to deal with in wet weather as long as you have something dry to change into. NEVER let your dry cloths get wet. Even peeing or crapping, you can do under a tarp and slip the feces into a bag (from supper, burry it the next morning and seal the bag for hauling out,) if you HAVE to. The wife just uses the bandana for cleaning up and lets it sit in the rain for a few rinsing’s…pee is sterile.

[Steven Paris]

Diane,

I think this is when a set of “stop”/”sleep” clothes makes sense in our PNW climate (except maybe July – August and even then, it probably makes sense to carry sleeping clothes for the given temps). Something like your Capilene or wool top and Cap bottoms.

[Diane Pinkers]

I ALWAYS have extra layers, in the PNW it is silly not to, even day hiking. I carry longjohns and warmer baselayer to change into. I carry a down jacket for warmth in camp, but I’ve been carrying a fleece vest and fleece jacket, made from Melanzana grid fleece by putting a zipper in and cutting off sleeves on the vest.  That way, I have something I can use for moving insulation if I need to, or if I need to stop, I can throw it on over damp layers and not be concerned.  Hiking uphill around the freezing level is fine, but once I start back downhill, I don’t generate sufficient warmth to keep from chilling, so the fleece layers on top of the baselayer has been helpful.

I’ve been backpacking in wet conditions above 60 F, and been fine.   Once I’m moving, I can be damp but warm. It’s under 55 F that I think would be challenging.  Even keeping the down carefully covered, I think a multi-day backpack in the cool rain we’ve been having would require a synthetic bag–just the dampness in the air would cause loss of loft.  Do the clothes on your clothesline really air dry much, James?  Here in the PNW the air would be so saturated, I’m not sure that much drying would occur.

Dayhiking, it doesn’t really matter, you are going back to the car and to home.  I just try to envision, what would I do if I were staying out longer?

[Bob Moulder]

On the move, for a day hike, it was a good combo, but what if I’d been out overnight?  My moving baselayer and windjacket were SOAKED.  I would have had to put on cold, wet layers, and hoped that I could generate enough body warmth while moving–and I am NOT anywhere close to fit like a Navy SEAL.  I wouldn’t have wanted to keep the wet layers on, put dry layers over top, and sat around in camp, trying to dry the base layer, especially because I use a down bag.  So, is this system really useful for Joe Hiker?  Mind you, I’m not sure that I would have been better off starting in the WPB layer today, it was constant rain the whole way along.

^^^^^THIS is IME a more realistic expectation for the average backpacker. It’s critical to have a dry base layer to swap out when you’re in your shelter, and you definitely do not want to put that on over wet stuff. Fleece on top of a dry layer will work, however. And wring out your wet stuff as best you can and spread it out to let it dry a bit—although it will still be quite damp come morning!—and be ready to put it back on in the morning. Depending upon the morning temperature it can be something of a shock to tug on those very damp layers, but once you’ve done it a time or 2 you’ll see it isn’t that bad. Also, the wet stuff inside your shelter will only add to the condensation so be ready to wipe the tent walls occasionally with a cotton bandanna or some other absorbent towel.

[Mike M]

a windshirt will definitely have its limits, you may have found yours :)

I was in my windshirt all day yesterday snowshoeing; weather went from drizzle low, wet snow a little higher and then a full out blizzard on top. On my way back down my windshirt was completely dry (as was my base layer)- it was the perfect garment in those conditions

 

[Richard Nisley]

Diane,

You said, “On the move, for a day hike, it was a good combo, but what if I’d been out overnight?  My moving baselayer and windjacket were SOAKED.  I would have had to put on cold, wet layers, and hoped that I could generate enough body warmth while moving…”

The reason Natick recommendeds their non-WPB option is for better active temperature regulation. Either option may result in the active layer base and the shell being wet prior to camping for a night; wet mitigation when non-active is the same for both options.

[Roger Caffin]

Bob wrote:
Depending upon the morning temperature it can be something of a shock to tug on those very damp layers, but once you’ve done it a time or 2 you’ll see it isn’t that bad.
WRONG!
It isn’t bad, it’s awful.
That which does not kill me makes me … something …
Hot food and dry sleep gear: that’s what matters.

On a more technical level: being wet does not matter so much, but deflecting the cold wet rain from hitting you and leaching your warmth away is vital. Tha’s why we go for a WP poncho.

Cheers!

[Paul S.]

Richard,

I tried your 2 cup of water pressure test on several jackets and got some interesting results.  I had a hard time going from no drops getting through and a few drops. Usually was no droplets, lots of droplets, then literally squeezing water through every pore.

• SD Stow: started leaking without any additional pressure but only in certain spots. Makes me think perhaps due to wear.
• Squamish (2015?): some pressure.  Better than the 300 mm HH rated Stow.
• OR Ferrosi: more pressure than Squamish.
• Gamma MX (power shield? 2007?): most pressure. Pretty low CFM, but higher than the 3 CFM of the Stow.

 

[Bob Moulder]

WRONG!
It isn’t bad, it’s awful.
That which does not kill me makes me … something …
Hot food and dry sleep gear: that’s what matters.

Obviously, strictly personal! I’ve often noted (personally!) that knowing what is coming mitigates the effect substantially. When I put on my damp clothes in Pennsylvania recently (April 6) it was exactly 0°C and I was expecting far worse!!

On a more technical level: being wet does not matter so much, but deflecting the cold wet rain from hitting you and leaching your warmth away is vital. Tha’s why we go for a WP poncho.

Well you’ve certainly got something there. On my last trip I used a Zpacks poncho and was quite pleased with it; it provided just the right amount of water and wind deflection and the resulting thermo/hygro equilibrium was perfect at my normal hiking pace, which is almost exactly 2mph average, for such cool/rainy conditions including a couple of brief pauses to eat, hills, water collection, etc.

Back when I was doing a bit of mountaineering I always tried to keep in mind that when we get cold the problem isn’t the cold getting in but the heat getting out… AND moisture management. Very cold and dry is MUCH easier IMO than cool and wet.

[Richard Nisley]

Paul,

Thanks for the interesting feedback on the DIY 300 mm HH test.

SD Stow: What you experienced is characteristic of even new garments with ~0 mm HH. Under a microscope, you can typically see significant variance in the interstitial gaps. The large gaps are what starts leaking immediately without pressure.

Squamish 2015: See Arc’teryx Squamish Kept Name & Acclaim but Tests Not the Same This is a 53 CFM and 70 mm HH garment and what you saw on your test seems indicative.

OR Ferrosi: This is a 9 CFM garment. High quality weaves/knits in this air permeability range typically test near the 300 mm HH target.

Gamma MX (2007): The Polartec Power Shield version I tested, from that era, was 7 CFM and 1,000 mm HH. The HH is so high because it is a laser perforated membrane with precise spacing and a uniform pore size. I would have expected you to report that you exerted a significantly higher force versus the OR Ferrosi to cause leaking.

Because of the insulation amount, this garment is generally only appropriate for active temps below 0F. See Old discussion thread.

 

[Stumphges]

Paul,

If I remember right, the Stow fabric was given a polyurethane “kiss coat” to improve water and wind resistance. Maybe that coating has worn off or degraded.

[Paul S.]

Richard,

Your specs then align quite well with the 2 cup water test. The Gamma MX took quite a bit more pressure than the on Ferrosi. I tried all the non-WPB jackets I had on hand to establish a baseline of comparison since it’s hard to say how much pressure I was exerting.

Anecdotally, the Squamish let’s in real rain very quickly and only resists a light drizzle.  The Stow and Ferrosi stand up better to real rain before wetting out. The Gamma MX doesn’t see much use anymore and was my fall/spring jacket around town.

I’m surprised the Ferrosi rates at 9 CFM since it feels about the same as the Squamish in the breath test.

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