The Insulation Mess

[Bob Gross]

"The way they test down is to dry it, then put it in a cylinder of some size, then put a specific weight on top and let it compress the down that much"

They used to have a transparent cylinder like that in the back room of Western Mountaineering in San Jose. Back around 1980-1985, they were only trying to get about 600 or 650 fill power.

–B.G.–

[Matthew Black]

The "good ol' days". The first time I saw anything over than 650 was on the Feathered Friends site in '98 or '99. Pretty crazy how fill power has changed. Cherynobyl geese?

[Bob Gross]

I purchased a new winter sleeping bag in 1980 from REI. Prior to that time, REI was importing the down first from Poland, and then from China. The sleeping bag was being sewn up in the USA. Then the Chinese said, "Why don't we just sew it up for you?" So it happened, and just about all of their sleeping bags have been sewn on the Pacific Rim since then. Mine is a 600 fill power goose down bag, and that was pretty high up on the food chain in 1980.

Some of the quality of the down comes from whether the geese were raised for food, and the down is just a valuable byproduct, or if the geese were raised for down, and the food is just an edible byproduct.

Despite some good winter use, the bag and its down stuffing is in perfect condition.

I have Feathered Friends gear also, and it is top quality as well. They broke the mold by sewing semi-custom bags and gear.

–B.G.–

[Roger Caffin]

900 loft down is a bit of a fraud. 850 loft is about as high as the very best down will go (with the possible exception of genuine Eider Duck down).

But … some American down gear mfrs wanted bigger numbers – for MARKETING purposes. So they hassled International Down and Feather Labs in the USA (IDFL) to 'find a way'. So IDFL did find a way. American mfrs happy, Euro mfrs very scornful. Roger scornful too.

Most natural fibres are conditioned to 60 F / 65% humidity, which is by way of being an international standard for fabric testing. That happens to be the average conditions in Leeds, UK, which is where all this started. But we KNOW that when you dry any natural fibre out to (say) <10% humidity, it gets stiffer. In the case of down, that means 800 loft is now 900 loft. So IDFL now offer to test down under their new IDFL test conditions, so you get a bigger number.

BUT – it is still really just 800 loft down, and you will never get 900 loft down performance in the field. The down will OF COURSE absorb moisture to bring it up to 50%-70% humidity as soon as the gear is unpacked. Your 900 loft down will be 800 loft (at the best) by the time you get it home. Ha – 3 nights in sub-freezing conditions and your '900 loft' down is probably behaving like 600 loft! It will be getting damp.

The Europeans saw through this immediately, and will not accept the IDFL numbers. They are quite blunt about it: they quote loft to their DIN Standard and sometimes put the gimmicked American figures in brackets afterwards. FRAUD.

Cheers

[Robert Blean]

I saw one place recently advertising its product contains 1000 loft down — cannot recall just where I saw that ….

–EV

[Link .]

Montbell PLASMA 1000 DOWN JACKET
HERE is Will Rietveld's review from last year

[David Ure]

You are then saying that the IDFL is fraudulent ?

http://www.idfl.com/media/pdfs/news/IDFL%20News%2027.pdf

I would like to see more evidence that a 900 fp rating is fraudulent or should we consider Feathered Friends, Katabatic Gear, Enlightened Equipment, Etc, frauds?

[peter vacco]

" You are then saying that the IDFL is fraudulent ? "

no, we are probably not actually saying exactly that.
we are probably saying that the IDFL test procedure is deceptive, bogus, heavily spins the data, and reeks of market driven bs.
that might be a a tad severe, but fact remains that there are more sensible ways to test down.

now, if one defines a lie as "an attempt to defraud for the purpose of gain", then IDFL is lying.
hair splitting legalspeak wise, if a hummer is not sex, then IDFL is straight up honest and it's probably not anybody else's business how they conduct their tests.

900 shminehundred … on a personal level. i buy WM bags, and they tell me they use the best they can find. it can sometimes get very cold outside, and i am not dead yet.

we hope some of that helps clear up the situation.

v.

[todd]

Peter,

That was one of the greatest posts EVER!

Thank you

[David Ure]

Lol.

Thanks Peter, I think.

Could you expand on the hummer part?

Seriously though, where are the independent tests to back up the rampant fraud? I guess I could take your word and Roger's word but then I might actually cook in my tent.

[Bill Townsend]

I'm happy enough with Roger's explanation- tests or not- it passes the logic test, if not the laboratory one…

If there is a bottom line for me-
For a consumer-
You must trust your vendor/professional of choice to solve all these problems for you and deliver to you a product that performs as advertised. If these conditions are not met, you return said product and seek another vendor. Much like a shoe, you may also learn that this vendor runs 5* light and this one just right and compare accordingly in relation to your experience.

Doesn't matter what it takes- at the end of the day it weighs X, Costs, X and you wake up in the morning happy and rested or head home to the post office.

For MYOG-
I think, from my point of view at least, the conclusion is there is no expert. Somewhere, someplace, somehow- as you approach the limits of weight or efficiency the variables become too unknown. One must be sacrificed in favor of the other. Chase weight and suffer less than designed temps. Err on the side of warmth and loose an ounce or two and $20.

The only reliable formula is to produce a given shell often enough to allow you to choose your optimal OS relative to that shell. Then as this design gets into the field, tinkering results in less "returned" goods and more satisfied "customers" and you call it a success.

Likely you don't know exactly why or every variable that made it a success- you just lump all the unknowns into the convenient and useful "overstuff" and with single variable in hand proceed to make good products.

I still believe Overstuff is BS, and a great percentage of it is simply fill. I think some of the basic math I did supports this idea well enough. This gets my consumer dander up, having a bit of smoke blown up my arse.

But viewed with dispassion of the mathematician I must concede it is a remarkably simplified way to calculate things and must accept the fact that a "one shot" formula is not available. (Or sits deep in some corporate safe in the proprietary information section.)

It is frustrating in that I do not have a fixed shell to tinker with as of yet- but it is what it is.

Regardless of the 1/10th of CLO or other mysteries beyond my High School education- if nothing else the effort to review the EN system further muddies the waters on that score. If the best and brightest minds have been forced to develop a system with four different expected temps, we must also "agree to disagree" on exactly what each CLO per ounce buys you at the end of the day.

My summary-
Apex is good stuff into summer and early shoulder- a bit further for the warmer amongst us.

PL could use some exploration to bridge the grey area- but that is risky business, especially if sources of "middle weight" Apex is available beyond the High Loft variants.

Someplace around the time you need to Double up the Apex- Down makes more sense. (Thank you all for helping me to see why) Where exactly is determined by your moisture exposure, durability desires, goal weight, and experience.

This is a tougher choice for me personally, my mile pushing long hour days lead to rough treatment and a wet dirty sleeper for days on end- but that's a pretty specific problem that should have stayed out of the discussion. Water treated downs may even make this concern irrelevant and down once more is the current winner in the old Synthetic vs. Down leapfrog race.

Thanks All- I welcome more comment and discussion- it's certainly an important topic. In the UL quest especially- sleep system is the biggest remaining area to tinker (as mentioned in my 32 ounce problem thread, which is the motivator for this thread)

Or perhaps like this entire community seams to have realized- once you've slashed and burned to 5lbs- giving your self back 8 ounces leads to a much better experience and fewer headaches. Best not to dance on the edge too long, at some point you fall off the cliff.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Bill

Can't argue with the 'giving your self back 8 ounces' bit. In fact, I fully agree.
It's a bit like carefuylly weighing out your food for the trip, then adding a bar of nice chocolate!

Cheers

[Bill Townsend]

Here's an odd one-
I am playing around with hammocks, and spent the night last night in a bridge prototype of mine. I has built in Apex 2.5, one layer on the entire bridge, and a second narrow torso layer 22×48 sewn to the shell. I used a hunk of CFF under my feet.
I slept in an old 750 fill Marmot that was once rated to 15 degrees 10-15 years ago.

Temps were 30's when I went to bed, dropped to seven or less, with windchills below zero (didn't check the weather)

I slept, not great obviously, but I slept for several hour plus sessions. I was wearing a merino 1, cap 3, and UL montbell down top, cap 4 hat and fleece balaclava not a baklava :). I had only a skirt and darn tuff socks on my bottom.

So the question- I don't know hammocks and exactly how UQ's work- but why did this work? Seeing as 5 oz. of Apex is at best 20* of insulation, but probably closer to 30/40* for most as discussed in this thread.

I know it's only a night- but any thoughts?

[Roger Caffin]

Clean living, pure thoughts, innocence …

Good dinner, warm before you went to bed, good hat and thermals, and limited wind.
And a bit of luck.

Cheers

[Bob Moulder]

Bill, I had a similar experience many years ago (late '90s) in Utah. Got down to 9F and I was in a 20F Campmor 650-fill bag, using a Thermarest self-inflating pad. Warm as toast, super comfy all night and none the wiser. I know the low temp because I had a low-registering thermometer.

I think it was the combination of extremely low humidity and no wind.

[Jerry Adams]

many other variables – what you ate, how much your exercised, whether you were a little sick from something, how warm or cold you 've been over the previous month(s).

you have to use it on a number of nights on a number of trips to really figure your minimum temperature

[Anonymous]

Dunno. Had a similar experience the other night. Slept a bit south of SNP in VA this Saturday night. Looking now at the weather channel for the lows, for SNP it said observed low of 14 F*. I don't think it got quite that cold in my area, probably at least 5 degrees warmer.

I used a 40 degree, short and slim 850 goose down quilt–however, with a sleeve of M50 material sewn on the bottom. Cowboy camped and was toasty warm, actually ended up taking off stuff. Started off in a hammock, but the stupid ENO pad stabilizer gimmic.. i mean gizmo, didn't work so well with my All Season pad, so i ended up going to ground.

What i started off wearing when in the hammock. A t-shirt type fishnet like baselayer, with MEC T3 hoody on top, my 2.3 oz front only insulated 2.5 Apex vest, a Stoic Hadron pull over, and Houdini. On bottom, polyester-wool blend dress pants with a touch of rayon, and Montbell UL down pants over same. Medium thickness wool-coolmax blend socks with thin alpaca dress socks over same. I ended up taking off the down pants while on the ground because i was too warm, and needed a pillow of some sort anyways.

I slept inside the sleeve, with the hammock draped over the top of the quilt.

Honestly, i think part of it was the fact that i wasn't expecting those temps. The forecast called for like around 27 or so. I figured i would be plenty warm and that expectation may have helped. Sort of placebo type affect?

I do also think the particular combination of top layers, as well as using the hammock as a bivy helped as well.

Other factors, only hiked until shortly before dark (really didn't do much miles because i started off late), ate 8 ounces of Trader Joes Wild Caught Alaskan Salmon after setting up, and a little while later (after that digested some), a lot of Cashew Clusters (Costco item, more addictive than crack). This combo ramped up my metabolism for sure, because i don't tend to eat a lot of protein in general and especially in one meal, and i've noticed that Cashew Clusters ups my metabolism when i eat a lot of it (probably all that fat). Was also fairly hydrated. I probably could stand to lose a few pounds, but by no means obese.

Anyways, these kind of experiences are sort of like dreams, you're generally going to be the best person to interpret same for yourself :)

[Jerry Adams]

how do you know Costco Cashews are more addictive than crack?

[Anonymous]

My crack head friends confirmed same for me. I think there was also a research paper from Harvard University on it.

[Bill Townsend]

No food since afternoon, a tall glass of whiskey on the rocks, two smokes and bad thoughts before bed. The wind was unpleasantly busy.

During one period of semi-wakefulness there was a soft glow in the distance, which could easily be explained by the moon, but that's just too easy. I did feel a slight pressure on my posterior, also conveniently attributed to my bottom resting on the edge of the bridge hammock, but again too simple.

I conclude it was the rectal probe of the alien visitor, likely introducing this warm internal heat source or some alien sedation technique perhaps was the most obvious cause.

I considered a repeat of the experiment last night, but as the temp was 10, with high winds and chill temps I figured it unlikely to be a good time for alien experimentation as this human was not to keen to experiment either.

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